< Bloatweb is an echo

~marginalia

I do think you are cherry picking examples. There are other examples, also much part of western culture, of the opposite. Extreme asceticism well beyond what anyone would consider reasonable today.

Cynics like Diogenes is form one counter point. I don't think people today quite realize how big of a deal they were, culturally, as we get the wacky hijinks retold to us at best, but not their rationale. There's a speech by Roman Emperor Julian (a.k.a. Julian the Apostate), half a millennium after Diogenes' death, which lauded him as an example of virtue, as a defense of paganism against the enchroaching Christianity.

Christanity also had its roots in extreme asceticism. Early christians lived communaly and denounced private property, and the desert fathers that followed turned it up another several notches. These are the origins of western monasticism. Various anabaptists still follow their antimaterialist example. This is also very much western culture.

There are also, if you look, quite a good number of gawdy cultural expressions in other cultures. In Indian culture, in Chinese culture, in African culture, in Mesoamerican culture.

Western culture did not invent materialism or lavish displays of wealth.

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~eaterofsheep wrote:

I confess, there is indeed some cherry picking on my part here. For the most part this is a cathartic late-night ramble which I regret losing sleep to make.

Another extreme example of Asceticism would be the Anchorites - mostly "Anchoresses" - who would voluntarily live alone in a church room with no escape, reading scripture and not a lot else until they died (well, they were already "dead to the world"). I find the idea of such a life very upsetting to even imagine!

However, I don't believe Christianity necessarily is Western. Certainly Christianity has influenced Western Civilisation, but that doesn't make early Christianity Western (sorry if you weren't suggesting that - just making sure) in the same way Judaism, which also influenced Western Civilsation, is not necessarily Western. I usually see these antimaterialist Christian tendencies as competing with or threatening Western ideas, hence the persecution of the Cathars.

Maybe I'm going into circular logic here. Maybe I am just seeing materialism as Western because I'm only categorising the materialistic ideas as truly Western. I don't know, I'll reflect on that more.

Sorry this message isn't nearly as well thought out or detailed as I'd like it to be, I have to catch up on some tasks. Thank you for your reply though, and I agree that there is gawdiness elsewhere in the world, even long before Western influence. I just felt like giving WestCiv a kicking as it seems to be dominant and worshipped, without the excuse of Xenophilia that attracts people to tasteless Indian, African, Chinese, etc. works.