●● IRC: #techrights @ FreeNode: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 ●● ● Nov 17 [00:00] DaemonFC[m] They're worthless. The FSF and the cancel culture that got rid of Stallman can go fuck themselves. [00:00] DaemonFC[m] But it was pretty bad under Stallman too. [00:00] DaemonFC[m] He laid the groundwork for these idiots to take over and depose him. [00:01] schestowitz Deb Icaza and de Raadt also [00:01] schestowitz I guess next up will be almost-retired Guido Van Icaza [00:02] MinceR :> [00:02] schestowitz with a virtual ceremony and clap-clap by Ballmer [00:02] schestowitz After that.., Stormy Peters [00:02] DaemonFC[m] Steve Ballmer said that he was "absolutely correct" to call Linux and the GPL "Communism" at the time. [00:03] schestowitz Because two men in two years in a row is sexist [00:03] DaemonFC[m] But that "things have changed". We all know what that means. [00:03] schestowitz after Stormy Peters they can award a person who sports a penis again [00:03] schestowitz anything else would be "intolerant" [00:03] DaemonFC[m] Windows has some sort of incompetent subsystem, and people on Reddit are pitching it as "Why would you ever run Linux on the hardware?". [00:03] XRevan86 DaemonFC[m]: What changed? [00:03] schestowitz Reddit is a trollfest [00:04] schestowitz with Microsoft paid trolls [00:04] schestowitz PAID [00:04] XRevan86 Corporate involvement in the Linux Foundation? [00:04] DaemonFC[m] WSL2 is still so bad that all you'd do is laugh at it. [00:04] schestowitz not hearsay [00:04] *chomwitt has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) [00:04] schestowitz e.g. techrights.org/2013/06/09/reddit-infiltrated/ [00:04] schestowitz http://techrights.org/2013/06/09/reddit-infiltrated/ [00:04] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Microsoft Crime Persists: AstroTurfing a Regular Practice, Reddit Full of Paid Microsoft AstroTurfers | Techrights [00:04] schestowitz fing firfox.. [00:04] schestowitz 'helping' me by shortening URLs [00:05] DaemonFC[m] The takeover, the burrowing, the people on the inside like mjg59 who impose non-Free binaries to get their shit to work with Linux so that nobody tries to bypass it and use the computer freely. [00:05] DaemonFC[m] He's a goddamned mole and they give the fucker an award for it. [00:05] schestowitz DaemonFC[m]: http://techrights.org/2020/05/06/wsl2-usage-numbers/ [00:05] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Only About 150,000 People Worldwide Use WSL2 (Windows Subsystem for Linux) | Techrights [00:05] psydroid I haven't seen WSL3 news yet [00:05] DaemonFC[m] The first thing the computer starts is a non-Free binary and the user isn't supposed to know that, but they give mjg59 an award. [00:06] DaemonFC[m] Then from there, the kernel starts breaking itself because herp derp security from some imaginary threat. [00:06] schestowitz http://techrights.org/2014/03/25/uefi-secure-boot-and-fsf/ [00:06] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | My Disagreement With the FSF Over UEFI Secure Boot | Techrights [00:06] schestowitz he canceled RMS too [00:06] DaemonFC[m] Don't worry, ZDNet will invent one! [00:06] schestowitz "post-RMS FSF" [00:06] schestowitz So RoyWasRight about mjg59 [00:06] schestowitz even back then.. [00:07] schestowitz ;-) [00:07] DaemonFC[m] Kernel Lockdown breaks a lot of basic functionality. [00:07] schestowitz BTW, Intel was a top FSF sponsor that year [00:07] DaemonFC[m] I mean the kind of stuff that Linus would start launching nuclear weapons over on mailing lists if it was those Open Source Security idiots. [00:08] schestowitz http://techrights.org/2020/07/30/wontboot/ [00:08] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Karma or Hubris? Is #TorvaldsWasRight a Thing Now? | Techrights [00:08] schestowitz http://techrights.org/2020/09/20/hijacking-linux/ [00:08] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | [Meme] How to Hijack Linux and Free Software to Make Them Proprietary and Microsoft-Controlled | Techrights [00:09] schestowitz http://techrights.org/2020/07/30/uefi-secure-boot-award/ [00:09] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | UEFI Secure Boot is Just a Security Mess, as Techrights Predicted All Along, and FSF Should Not Have Given That Award | Techrights [00:09] schestowitz http://techrights.org/2020/07/30/wontboot-meme/ [00:09] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | [Meme] It Was Only a Matter of Time All Along | Techrights [00:09] schestowitz mjg59 in a few of these memes [00:10] DaemonFC[m] https://opensource.com/article/19/11/coreboot-system76-laptops [00:10] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-System76 introduces laptops with open source BIOS coreboot | Opensource.com [00:10] schestowitz but... we're only being proven more right ove rtime [00:10] schestowitz about him, aboyt uefi [00:10] schestowitz about red hat and intel [00:10] schestowitz their objectives only sometimes overlap ours [00:10] schestowitz but often diverse [00:10] DaemonFC[m] More models are using this now, which fixes a huge litany of functional problems that he only excuses or refuses to acknowledge. [00:10] schestowitz freedom isn't profitable [00:10] schestowitz and that's where they disagree with us [00:10] DaemonFC[m] When this laptop bites it or I just get itchy, I'm just going to buy something with Coreboot. [00:10] schestowitz so azure, msvs, github, uefi 'secure boot' [00:10] schestowitz they don't care [00:10] schestowitz their board doesn't care [00:10] schestowitz money? [00:11] schestowitz then do it! [00:11] DaemonFC[m] No, they long ago gave up caring about desktop Linux users, at all. [00:11] *drdogcow has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [00:11] schestowitz war means money, too http://techrights.org/2020/06/06/regime-change-in-haiti/ [00:11] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Chairman of the Board of Red Hat Explains He Was Introduced to GNU/Linux When It Helped His Regime Change in Haiti | Techrights [00:11] DaemonFC[m] These people don't even use it themselves. [00:11] DaemonFC[m] It's all Windows and Macs. [00:11] schestowitz yup [00:11] schestowitz but LINUX [00:11] schestowitz good brand [00:11] schestowitz let's use it [00:11] schestowitz Mix that in headlines [00:11] schestowitz with Edge [00:12] schestowitz With Azure [00:12] schestowitz With Windows 10 [00:12] schestowitz With MSVS [00:12] DaemonFC[m] Someone on Reddit asked if I thought all was lost and we should move to BSD operating systems or something. [00:12] schestowitz "code" [00:12] schestowitz LINUX something something... our proprietary product [00:12] DaemonFC[m] I said I certainly hoped not, but that running Linux had gotten harder, not easier, since Microsoft started to "love" it. [00:12] schestowitz how's >that< for a headline? :-) [00:13] *drdogcow (~drunkendo@gateway/tor-sasl/drunkendogcowm/x-45413332) has joined #techrights [00:13] DaemonFC[m] There's actually a term in Politics for what mjg59and his buddies are doing. [00:14] DaemonFC[m] Ratfucking. [00:14] DaemonFC[m] They're ratfucking Linux. [00:14] schestowitz esr used that term [00:15] schestowitz first time I saw it tbh [00:15] schestowitz I smell a .... [00:16] DaemonFC[m] It's much easier to damage and discredit from the inside. [00:16] DaemonFC[m] Make it look like an accident. [00:16] schestowitz you don't have to tell me [00:16] schestowitz they had a few runs at us [00:16] schestowitz mostly failed afaik [00:17] DaemonFC[m] mjg59actually said at one point it was the fault of "Linux kernel developers" (which ones?) for not implementing support for Intel's undocumented standards. [00:17] schestowitz mjg59 came to this channel after I had challenged him for falsely, shamelessly associating us... with "rape" [00:17] schestowitz which is a very serious and unbacked allegations [00:17] DaemonFC[m] A year and a half in, they had never even publicly asked Intel for the documents, as far as I know. [00:17] schestowitz *allegation [00:17] schestowitz [23:53] [Notice] -TechrightsBot-tr to #techrights- EFI and Linux: the future is here, and it's awful - Matthew Garrett - YouTube [00:18] schestowitz This is classic concern-trolling [00:18] DaemonFC[m] And a month after Lenovo was threatened with investigation and released the BIOS update, Intel came and documented it and dumped the code to make it work, out of the blue. [00:18] DaemonFC[m] Goddamned miracle. [00:18] schestowitz like Lunduke's (Microsoft employee) "Linux Sucks" [00:18] DaemonFC[m] Total coincidence. [00:18] schestowitz You declare a problem [00:18] schestowitz overstates it [00:18] schestowitz then say it's inevitable [00:18] schestowitz "the future is here," [00:18] schestowitz It's here [00:18] schestowitz we lost [00:18] schestowitz don't fight [00:18] schestowitz we are hopeless [00:18] schestowitz might as well "get on with the show" [00:19] schestowitz like all the people who told RMS he'd never pull it off [00:19] schestowitz but he did [00:19] DaemonFC[m] schestowitz: Well, the issue here is that that landmine was defused after a year and a half of damage, but.... [00:19] schestowitz learned helpelessness [00:19] schestowitz induced pessimism [00:19] schestowitz ddefeatism [00:19] DaemonFC[m] They can always make more. [00:19] schestowitz they already did [00:19] schestowitz they do all the time [00:19] schestowitz some success, some fail [00:19] schestowitz to try to stall gnu/linxu domination in laptops/desktops [00:19] DaemonFC[m] System76 shipping Coreboot instead means at least you don't have to fight them on their own turf, so I think people should probably start buying those. [00:20] schestowitz as they already lost DEVELOP~1 DEVELOP~1 DEVELOP~1DEVELOP~1v [00:20] schestowitz OOXML pushers were the same [00:20] schestowitz "it's here" [00:20] schestowitz we need to adopt it [00:20] schestowitz same for exFAT [00:20] schestowitz shoved it right up Linux's arse [00:21] schestowitz Tso opposes [00:21] psydroid doesn't Red Hat "love" Linux and money more? [00:21] schestowitz but the friend of Garrett had said Tso is a rape something [00:21] schestowitz so who the heck cares with Tso thinks, right? [00:21] schestowitz Torvalds shivering, recalling that harrowing month of "manners training" [00:21] DaemonFC[m] https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/16/politics/wisconsin-recount-estimated-cost/index.html [00:21] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Wisconsin recount would cost Trump campaign $7.9 million - CNNPolitics [00:21] DaemonFC[m] This is just throwing good money after bad. No matter what, he loses. [00:22] schestowitz one month he makes the world's most used kernel, the next he's in some classes after Zemlinsoft told him to be a "good boy" [00:22] DaemonFC[m] He may as well just transfer it to his PAC instead and use that to sabotage Biden's presidency and prop up Republicans who will still carry out Trump's bidding. [00:23] *zjmc_ (~jmc@184.75.221.203) has left #techrights [00:24] schestowitz Day of rage [00:24] schestowitz Trump riling up the believers [00:24] schestowitz in youtube vids about "voter fraud" [00:25] schestowitz voter fraud does exist [00:25] schestowitz but not at those scales [00:26] schestowitz a few rogue ballots don't add up to thousands or millions without it going above the radar [00:26] psydroid https://jamesallworth.medium.com/intels-disruption-is-now-complete-d4fa771f0f2c [00:26] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-jamesallworth.medium.com | Intels Disruption is Now Complete | by James Allworth | Nov, 2020 | Medium [00:27] schestowitz Intel put me on conference call [00:27] psydroid no more Intel->no more UEFI->ultimate joy [00:27] schestowitz with their managers [00:27] schestowitz because of my criticism of UEFI 'secure boot' [00:27] schestowitz they did not convince me [00:27] schestowitz I have the thing recorded still [00:27] schestowitz on external drive [00:27] schestowitz if I ever wanted to dig that up [00:28] schestowitz I wrote about it back then [00:28] schestowitz but never released the audio [00:28] schestowitz iirc, it was cut into many bits [00:28] schestowitz I used some freesw to record it [00:28] schestowitz maybe audacity [00:28] schestowitz and then it crashed or something [00:28] schestowitz but there were buffer failed still at hand [00:29] schestowitz seaming them together would take ages [00:29] schestowitz I literally put a microphone next to a landline headset [00:29] schestowitz so the quality of the audio wasn't good either and it's hard to hear me [00:30] schestowitz They only did this to one more person [00:30] schestowitz Jamie from ZDNet [00:30] schestowitz their only writer who actuallyt supported Linux [00:30] schestowitz before they got rid of him, because of course... [00:30] schestowitz he kept complaining there about uefi [00:31] schestowitz it was getting in his way every time he was testign distros [00:31] schestowitz so intel wanted to squash him too [00:31] schestowitz I think with him they succeeded at getting a puff piece [00:31] schestowitz and then he vanished from zdnet [00:31] schestowitz maybe not the same year [00:32] psydroid Intel tried to hire me twice, but I don't want to work there because they are hostile towards their clients and even their own employees [00:32] schestowitz larry dignan, zdnet editor, fired more like him [00:32] schestowitz paula rooney [00:32] schestowitz dana blankenhord [00:32] schestowitz They kept sjvn [00:32] schestowitz "call me crazy" sjvn [00:32] schestowitz who says "call me crazy" [00:33] psydroid I remember them from the days when I did read ZDNet [00:33] schestowitz when he says Windows will be Linux [00:33] schestowitz and they censor his articles [00:33] schestowitz when he writes 'too' negatively about Microsoft [00:33] schestowitz http://techrights.org/2020/09/10/sjvn-senior-moment/ [00:33] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | One Year Later Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols Libel Against Richard Stallman Remains Online and Uncorrected at ZDNet | Techrights [00:34] schestowitz wife and I call him "VonVon" [00:34] schestowitz total idiot in her views [00:34] schestowitz and our associates really hate him [00:34] schestowitz more than me... I don't hate him at all... I just totally lost respect for him [00:34] schestowitz he hangs around with LF SPAMnil now [00:34] schestowitz and the rest of LF gang [00:34] schestowitz does PR for them [00:35] psydroid isn't he really old now? [00:35] schestowitz would be late 60s, I think [00:35] schestowitz the beard makes him look older [00:36] schestowitz http://techrights.org/2019/10/08/torvalds-age/ [00:36] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Corporate Disciplining Bad for Ones Health | Techrights [00:36] schestowitz this is VonVon (SJVN) and Linus [00:36] schestowitz they look almost the same age [00:37] schestowitz Torvalds must have lives on pringles on something since they punished him... pringles and Cokwe [00:37] schestowitz Coke [00:38] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Programming Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144440 [https://pleroma.site/objects/50031884-5c93-4d07-9729-976143a8c05b] [00:40] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: GNU and OpenStack http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144441 [https://pleroma.site/objects/41be858a-0aac-4e68-980b-a95ef99ed8f9] [00:42] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Open or Freedom-Respecting Hardware http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144442 [https://pleroma.site/objects/e614c5a0-d1a1-41b5-a9fe-11805132f6fd] [00:46] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Todays Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144443 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c8c2b622-1588-4345-bfe6-ac946d57a7a7] [00:46] DaemonFC[m] Transferring my current music library to my phone. [00:47] DaemonFC[m] Takes forever because it's WavPack files. [00:47] mjg59 DaemonFC[m]: I've repeatedly asked Intel to document their AHCI/RAID passthrough mode [00:47] DaemonFC[m] But I found that backing out all five hundred and eleventy bazillion of Intel's fuck-up mitigations sped up the encoder for WavPack by about 3 warp factors. [00:47] DaemonFC[m] :/ [00:47] mjg59 "The real problem here is that Intel do very little to ensure that free operating systems work well on their consumer hardware - we still have no information from Intel on how to configure systems to ensure good power management, we have no support for storage devices in "RAID" mode and we have no indication that this is going to get better in future. If Intel had provided that support, this issue would [00:48] mjg59 never have occurred. Rather than be angry at Lenovo, let's put pressure on Intel to provide support for their hardware." [00:48] DaemonFC[m] So making another pass over them has resulted in....some space savings. Which are always nice. [00:48] DaemonFC[m] mjg59: But you fail to address the meat of the subject here. [00:49] DaemonFC[m] Rather than focusing on Intel's stupid fucking moronic "RAID" mode, focus on the facts. [00:49] DaemonFC[m] It's pointless, Lenovo is the one that hid AHCI, and then they wrote yet more code to flip it back every reboot even if you used EFI shell to change it anyway. [00:50] DaemonFC[m] Then the separate fact that it adds nothing to the user experience at all and if your argument is that Windows 10 starts losing its shit and blue screening more than it normally does if some idiot gets in there and fucks with the shit, then wouldn't hiding it in the firmware menu be enough so that only a person who would know why they wanted to change the setting could do it? [00:50] DaemonFC[m] Therefore, why the EXTRA code? [00:50] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 17/11/2020: Six New Debian Developers and Orange Pis $16 Zero2 http://techrights.org/2020/11/16/six-new-debian-developers/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/5d49824a-44b0-4e5e-b50e-ca6c39831d4c] [00:52] DaemonFC[m] Raw device access is the only thing that makes sense, and even Intel's engineers admitted it at one point, although they didn't mention that it was such a bad idea, Lenovo made it the law. [00:53] DaemonFC[m] That's what I usually like saying about the government. "It was such a bad idea that they made it the law.". [00:53] MinceR intel did plenty dick moves on their own [00:53] DaemonFC[m] You know, the kind of stupidity that nobody would have cooperated with voluntarily gets made so you don't have a choice. [00:54] DaemonFC[m] They did. It's a team effort. [00:54] DaemonFC[m] The usual suspects all had a hand in it, and all of this handwringing to try to avoid blaming the whole bunch of them is very interesting. [00:55] DaemonFC[m] But mostly this is Lenovo and Microsoft's fault and it was a corrupt bargain. [00:55] DaemonFC[m] They entered into it in exchange for vendor rebate kickbacks for locking the customer into Windows once they realized how bad Windows 10 was. [00:55] DaemonFC[m] And mjg59 is completely silent there. [00:56] DaemonFC[m] Then, like Windows 10 S Mode, you have to pass it so you can find out what's in it. It's meant as an ambush after the user already has it at home and unboxed. [00:56] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in #Techrights http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144444 [https://pleroma.site/objects/29d2afc9-ada6-4bc2-9539-0bd49403c921] [00:57] psydroid my uncle returned a Lenovo laptop over the "RAID" (Intel RST) mode last year [00:57] DaemonFC[m] Then they probably just groan and use Windows 10 because resistance is difficult and there's not too many "Don't fuck with me, fellas!" people, like me, out there. [00:57] DaemonFC[m] psydroid: The BIOS update took care of the affected systems, and you don't even have to use that now. [00:57] DaemonFC[m] Linux should just work. [00:58] DaemonFC[m] But I never put it back because it adds pointless complexity and potential bugs to the situation. [00:58] DaemonFC[m] The correct answer is most often the simpler one. [00:59] DaemonFC[m] mjg59: takes advantage of that by asserting that Intel and Lenovo are just a bunch of total fucking retards, when they've proven over and over again that, yeah, they're that, but they're vicious and scheming too! [00:59] DaemonFC[m] Like their pals over at Apple and Microsoft. ● Nov 17 [01:00] DaemonFC[m] Their "best people" are always the lawyers, never the engineers. [01:00] DaemonFC[m] Intel has had some spectacularly bad products before but nothing even holds a candle to their recent stuff. [01:01] DaemonFC[m] So they use patents and lawyers and dirty tricks and vendor kickbacks, just like Microsoft. [01:01] DaemonFC[m] In fact, they even threatened Microsoft. [01:01] psydroid I just listen to that video he posted and even though I didn't really pay attention, it sounded more like beating around the bush avoiding the real issue of why UEFI was needed in the first place and then finding workarounds for the buggy mess it is [01:02] DaemonFC[m] Microsoft's SEC report that I showed schestowitz even admitted, although in a roundabout way, that money comes in from vendors, and a lot of it just goes right back out as bribes to put things in "S Mode". [01:02] DaemonFC[m] Their thinking is that users won't try to bust out of the confinement and then they can have developers pay a 30% tax to use the Windows store, which rebounds on the consumer anyway. [01:03] DaemonFC[m] They see "giving away copies" of Windows as long as it defaults to only running apps in the store as an "investment" in fleecing the consumer even worse later. [01:04] MinceR > why UEFI was needed [01:04] MinceR people were realizing that there were non-shit OSes available for PCs [01:05] MinceR so the redmond mafia needed a way of locking PCs into the uhmerican government-approved duopoly of crapOS and Backdoors [01:05] DaemonFC[m] Then, to avoid being sued or bad PR, they let you turn it into a real copy of Windows 10 Home, but not before trying to scare the bejesus out of you. Suddenly, the "most secure Windows ever" will become riddled with malware and corrupt settings and all of the things we've come to expect. [01:05] DaemonFC[m] Because it's really that fragile. [01:06] MinceR "the most secure windows ever", now with built-in keylogger [01:06] MinceR this industry disgusts me [01:06] DaemonFC[m] I just got an unexpected package. [01:07] psydroid I would say that those "users" moved to Android and iOS, as they were never true computer users in the first place [01:07] DaemonFC[m] It's addressed to my apartment but not to me. [01:07] DaemonFC[m] It says "IRHYTHM STOCK -ICC QUARANTINE". [01:25] mjg59 Ok well at least we're at the point where you're no longer accusing me of not criticising Intel [01:25] mjg59 Or publicly asking for them to release docs [01:26] mjg59 There's a clear explanation for how this could happen without maliciousness on Lenovo's part [01:26] mjg59 The explanation is simply that they didn't care [01:26] mjg59 They made choices that made it more difficult for users to get the system into an unsupported state that could potentially cause hardware damage [01:27] MinceR if that was the goal, they could have accomplished it much more simply by selling customers slabs of stone instead of an alleged PC [01:27] DaemonFC[m] The only distribution that was stupid enough to potentially cause an adverse reaction due to another one of their uEFI bugs was Ubuntu with the Intel-SPI driver they built from staging. [01:27] mjg59 And if Intel had done their fucking job and documented how the hardware works then there'd have been a driver and Linux would have worked fine [01:28] DaemonFC[m] They don't care if it has bugs. Nobody at Microsoft, Intel, or Lenovo cares. By the time you figure it out, you're home with it, and they still assume they're going to get you again anyway. [01:28] DaemonFC[m] It takes a long time to get out of a mindset where you're just going to keep putting one over on people because they have no options. [01:28] DaemonFC[m] So I agree to that much, but this went above and beyond not wanting to field support calls because some idiot found their way into BIOS Setup. [01:28] mjg59 Like how Intel's refusal to document DPTF means that a large number of laptops run slower under Linux than Windows [01:29] DaemonFC[m] Nobody is going to open EFI shell and tell it to put the storage controller in a different mode by accident. [01:29] DaemonFC[m] Even if they could conceivably hit a key and go "Oh what's this? Maybe I'll just play around with stuff at random.". [01:29] DaemonFC[m] So why the extra code? [01:30] mjg59 Because if you just remove the option then you still need to write something that sets the appropriate mode in the first place [01:30] mjg59 And the easiest thing to do there is just hardware it in the init code [01:30] mjg59 Rather than figure out how to set the default properly [01:31] mjg59 Firmware is not written with great care and attention [01:31] DaemonFC[m] Or you could just assume that it's where you put it and if the user goes to EFI shell and says different, they must know why they're doing that. [01:31] mjg59 You can't simultaneously complain about uefi being poorly implemented and then cite a poor implementation as evidence of conspiracy [01:31] MinceR "Firmware is not written with great care and attention" -- that should be hewlett-packard's motto [01:31] mjg59 Why would they even think about a user doing that? [01:32] MinceR UEFI itself is a result of conspiracy [01:32] MinceR it involved at least intel and microshit [01:32] DaemonFC[m] Because about 5% will take the laptop home and try to put Linux on it somehow, statistically. [01:32] mjg59 Firmware developers do not consider that [01:32] DaemonFC[m] And then they'll end up with returns or what happened when I opened one up and went "Nope, don't need Windows 10. Nope nope nope.". [01:33] DaemonFC[m] 1 in 20 returning your product or yelling and swearing at you is not a blip. [01:33] DaemonFC[m] You need to anticipate that, if nothing else. [01:33] DaemonFC[m] And I think they learned something here. [01:34] DaemonFC[m] I haven't heard about any new Lenovo PCs that don't let you install Linux. Maybe if they're REALLY new some distributions won't have a driver for something quite yet. [01:34] DaemonFC[m] But no hard blocks on it. [01:34] mjg59 The difference between "Our assumptions about support tradeoffs didn't match reality" and "We conspired with Microsoft to screw over Linux" is meaningful [01:34] mjg59 And, again, if Intel had done their job then Linux would have worked fine [01:35] mjg59 Because the failure here was that Linux didn't have a driver for it [01:35] DaemonFC[m] If they shipped a damned laptop that wasn't full tilt crazy then they'd have never heard from any of their customers about it in the first place. [01:35] mjg59 Despite hardware having shipped in this mode for years previously [01:35] DaemonFC[m] They certainly wouldn't have had to start banning hundreds of people on their forums. :) [01:35] MinceR not forcing this bullshit "RAID" mode would have worked too [01:35] mjg59 Yeah, it's clear that not forcing that mode was a problem [01:36] mjg59 But there's a reason that mode exists [01:36] DaemonFC[m] Yeah, because Windows has a storage driver that doesn't load the power policy. [01:36] MinceR it exists because the way Backdoors manages drivers is ass-backwards [01:36] DaemonFC[m] Sounds like a don't ask, don't tell to me. [01:36] MinceR so they had to lie to Backdoors that it was a different device so they could get it to load a custom driver [01:36] DaemonFC[m] If Microsoft wanted to know how to do this, Intel would tell them. [01:36] MinceR it's a horrible mess, not engineering [01:36] mjg59 Right, if you ship in AHCI mode you have no way to force the use of the Intel driver over the generic driver [01:37] mjg59 If Intel would document their power management policy then even the generic AHCI driver in Windows could do the right thing here [01:37] MinceR that's hilarious if true [01:37] MinceR because fixing that would have been a lot simpler and easier than this unholy mess [01:37] DaemonFC[m] There was also no way to install Windows 10 from a clean ISO, remember? [01:37] DaemonFC[m] So the only way to fix it if something fucked up was hope the built in recovery tools that never work, work. [01:37] mjg59 There's a genuine reason why laptops that can never have more than one disk in them ship in this mode by default [01:38] mjg59 The XPS13 does, if you don't have the Linux SKU [01:38] mjg59 Well, did until they went nvme [01:38] DaemonFC[m] Linux would still work on the others though, afaik. [01:38] mjg59 You had to change the option [01:38] mjg59 It wouldn't out of the box [01:39] DaemonFC[m] Well, at least they didn't HIDE IT. [01:39] DaemonFC[m] So if I ran into that problem I'd just google "no storage device dell xps 13 linux" or something. [01:39] DaemonFC[m] And I'd be on my way. [01:40] DaemonFC[m] I'm pretty terrified of what's out there to the point where I want a newer laptop but I don't want to buy anything. [01:40] MinceR i suspect intel's and microshit's problem with properly documenting intel's shit was that that way competing OS-es could have just as easily supported intel's shit [01:40] DaemonFC[m] Because it's all a pig in a poke and some work, many don't. [01:40] MinceR remember, intel was willing to design a "windows only" SoC for microshit for the sole purpose of fucking over users [01:41] mjg59 Intel are fine with Linux, but certain teams within Intel are extremely afraid to publish details [01:41] DaemonFC[m] Bay FAIL was a disaster even with Windows. [01:41] MinceR maybe the 32bit UEFI implementation also had to do with them [01:41] MinceR which, again, only existed to make it harder to run a real OS on certain intel-based devices [01:41] mjg59 32 bit UEFI was vendors wanting to ship 2GB Windows tablets [01:41] DaemonFC[m] Wasn't that the first system they marooned people on an unsupported Windows 10 that didn't even get security patches anymore? [01:41] DaemonFC[m] It won't be the last. [01:41] MinceR why, did 64bit UEFI require more than 2GB RAM to function? [01:41] mjg59 Yes [01:41] mjg59 Well [01:42] mjg59 To be able to actually launch anything [01:42] MinceR it wouldn't surprise me, considering what an unholy bloated mess it is [01:42] mjg59 64 bit Linux needs more RAM than 32 bit Linux [01:42] DaemonFC[m] Not a lot more, really. [01:42] mjg59 Turns out that doubling the length of pointers takes more RAM [01:42] mjg59 DaemonFC[m]: Python on 64 bit consumes around 50% more RAM than on 32 bit [01:42] MinceR pretty sure it can boot with less than 2GB RAM though [01:42] DaemonFC[m] I was probably one of the first people to move over to 64-bit Linux in 2005 or so. [01:42] DaemonFC[m] That was on a system with maybe 2 GB. [01:43] MinceR and the boot firmware is supposed to free most of RAM once it's done [01:43] mjg59 Anyway, that's why 32 bit UEFI on 64 bit CPUs exists [01:43] mjg59 It's almost 100% on devices that had small amounts of RAM [01:43] MinceR (or let whatever it booted use it any way it wants to, anyway) [01:43] MinceR that's a hilarious idea too [01:43] mjg59 You can't boot 32 bit Windows on 64 bit UEFI [01:43] mjg59 So the amount of RAM used by the firmware is irrelevant [01:43] DaemonFC[m] Why does that even still exist? [01:44] MinceR let's design devices to run the world's most bloated "operating system" with so little RAM we have to fuck with the boot firmware so it will fit! [01:44] mjg59 MinceR: Capitalism is a hell of a drug [01:44] DaemonFC[m] Windows 10 32-bit. Ugh. [01:44] MinceR this isn't capitalism, this is plain old organized crime [01:44] mjg59 Anyway, Linux runs fine on them now [01:44] DaemonFC[m] You'd really think that Windows Vista would have been the end of the line for 32-bit x86 Windows. [01:44] MinceR it has nothing to do with ownership of the means of production [01:44] mjg59 Even in 64 bits [01:45] DaemonFC[m] By 2009 the platform was very much obsolete. [01:45] MinceR and if we had a genuine free market, microshit would have gone bust long ago [01:45] DaemonFC[m] Here we are, 15 YEARS after the last 32-bit x86 processor that anyone cares about came off the line, and we're still talking about 32-bit Windows. [01:45] DaemonFC[m] OEMs skimping on RAM to save 10 cents. [01:46] DaemonFC[m] This is backpeddling. 4 GB of RAM on any OS in 2020 is a fucking joke. [01:46] DaemonFC[m] You can blow right past that on Linux with all but the most minimal desktop environment and applications. [01:47] DaemonFC[m] So, like, what chance does a Windows 10 device have? None. That's why everyone on the reviews say this is really really slow. [01:47] MinceR mostly thanks to the "modern" web [01:47] mjg59 Walmart will sell you a laptop with 2GB of RAM today [01:47] DaemonFC[m] Yeah, a Chromebook probably. [01:48] mjg59 No [01:48] DaemonFC[m] Actually, I bought a $179 Chromebook with 4 GB in April. [01:48] mjg59 Windows 10 [01:48] DaemonFC[m] So, uhhh. [01:48] MinceR lol [01:48] DaemonFC[m] What are you talking about, actually? [01:48] mjg59 And so thermally limited that it's only capable of running at half speed [01:48] mjg59 https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/we-bought-walmarts-140-laptop-so-you-wouldnt-have-to/ [01:48] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-arstechnica.com | We bought Walmarts $140 laptop so you wouldnt have to | Ars Technica [01:48] DaemonFC[m] Chrome OS is the only system that anyone knows what the fuck you're talking about that will still be decent with 4 GB of RAM. [01:48] *mmu_man has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [01:48] MinceR sounds like a laptop the sole purpose for which is to demonstrate that you either need more than 2GB RAM, or you need to ditch Backdoors [01:49] mjg59 Hardware vendors will cut any corners available to them to skimp on hardware to hit a price point [01:49] mjg59 So 32 bit UEFI was entirely unsurprising [01:49] MinceR pretty sure any _decent_ GNU/Linux distro will do fine with 4GB RAM if you don't weigh it down with a shitty DE or the "modern" web [01:49] DaemonFC[m] It's a system that's designed to show off Windows 10 with the minimum specs published by Microsoft. [01:49] DaemonFC[m] How does that EVER end? [01:49] mjg59 No conspiracies needed [01:49] DaemonFC[m] You know, 10 minutes to boot up. Out of memory when it does. [01:50] DaemonFC[m] mjg59: You'd think that for $1300 there wouldn't be too many compromises. Apple can get away with charging 4x that for a system that's half as good. [01:50] DaemonFC[m] But few others could. [01:50] MinceR well, at least with crApple you also don't get proper cooling [01:51] DaemonFC[m] Apple gets away with a lot, including a HIG that makes no sense at all. [01:51] DaemonFC[m] One button mice that cost $200. [01:51] MinceR and a system that already won't boot a real OS [01:51] MinceR because "security" [01:51] DaemonFC[m] Perversions that only the head of IBM or the Linux foundation would enjoy using. [01:52] mjg59 T2 Macs can have secure boot entirely disabled [01:52] MinceR you can also get a "unibody" that blows hot air onto the part that's supposed to be one piece but is actually glued together so it falls apart [01:52] DaemonFC[m] Yes, I've read that. That's the only Secure Boot setting you need. OFF [01:52] MinceR and a power connector that overheats and catches fire [01:52] mjg59 M1 Macs will have the ability to enable booting alternative OSes [01:52] MinceR you really get a lot for your money with crApple [01:53] MinceR not things any sane person would desire, but things. [01:53] mjg59 (Although this was only determined this week) [01:53] DaemonFC[m] Especially with this fucking stupid break drivers AND userspace Linux Lockdown bullshit you like so much. [01:53] MinceR i wonder if they'll let you sideload applications onto M1 macs [01:53] MinceR they were already screwing with third-party applications (like xonotic) before, but afaik it wasn't official [01:54] mjg59 DaemonFC[m]: That's why shim's designed to let you disable that if you need it [01:54] mjg59 MinceR: There's no difference between ARM and x86 for third party apps on MacOS at the moment [01:54] DaemonFC[m] Even if you can't turn off allegedly secure but designed by the same retards that fucked everything else up boot? [01:54] mjg59 DaemonFC[m]: Yes [01:55] MinceR so they don't dare make that change yet [01:55] mjg59 shim is explicitly designed to ensure that it's always possible to disable secure boot [01:55] MinceR i guess they'll still update crapOS for x86 a few times [01:55] MinceR and lock it down only once x86 support is gone [01:55] *rianne_ (~rianne@host81-154-173-112.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights [01:56] *rianne__ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) [01:56] DaemonFC[m] mjg59: So, you might have noticed that with most OEMs the first and last firmware you get is what it came with. [01:56] *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [01:56] DaemonFC[m] So when there's tons of security vulnerabilities that completely bypass secure boot, they just pile up on the user, never get fixed, and that's that. [01:56] DaemonFC[m] So why would anyone leave it on? [01:57] mjg59 DaemonFC[m]: Because they use systems where they do get vendor updates? [01:57] MinceR because microshit marketroids keep telling them it's "secure" [01:57] *liberty_box (~liberty@host81-154-173-112.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights [01:57] MinceR and most people are so stupid that if someone spends a lot of money on ads claiming falsehoods, they'll believe them [01:58] mjg59 Obviously you can't implement something secure on an insecure foundation [01:58] mjg59 But if you have a secure foundation, you can [01:58] MinceR then maybe your boot firmware shouldn't be as complex as possible [01:58] MinceR and maybe your means of keeping your boot firmware unaltered shouldn't depend on potentially fragile cryptography but hardware switches [01:58] DaemonFC[m] So if you have one of those theoretical systems where the vendor that doesn't care about bugs is fixing bugs, Secure Boot works. [01:59] DaemonFC[m] Well thank you for clarifying that. [01:59] mjg59 I've got like 4 of those within reach [01:59] mjg59 No, 5 [01:59] MinceR but claiming that locking users into Backdoors or crapOS is "secure" is a ludicrous claim anyway [01:59] DaemonFC[m] Which vendor is actually fixing their systems? [01:59] mjg59 Lenovo, Dell, HP at least ● Nov 17 [02:00] DaemonFC[m] Lenovo never updated the BIOS for this thing other than the "Linux only" one. [02:00] MinceR We really havent done everything we could to protect our customers. Our products just arent engineered for security. Brian Valentine, Microsoft [02:00] DaemonFC[m] So if you count that, where its just the original image with the AHCI shown, then yeah. [02:00] DaemonFC[m] Sure. Okay. [02:00] DaemonFC[m] In 4 years, they've never fixed a goddamned thing. [02:00] MinceR well, the HP "Pro"Book i've used at work which had broken Legacy Boot was pretty old [02:01] MinceR yet they didn't fix it [02:01] MinceR and seeing how the firmware in that POS behaved, i doubt HP could even ever fix it [02:01] MinceR since they obviously had no clue about what they were doing [02:01] DaemonFC[m] I've never seen an OEM fix anything or if they do it's a one and done a few months past hitting the shelf. [02:01] mjg59 MinceR: That quote's from 2002, which was the year Microsoft's trustworthy computing initiative started [02:01] MinceR LOL [02:01] mjg59 Since then Microsoft's legitimately made meaningful improvements to their security [02:02] MinceR are you going to plug Treacherous Computing now? [02:02] mjg59 Things like Credential Guard are well designed features [02:02] MinceR that's hilarious [02:02] DaemonFC[m] Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer say Trust Me. [02:02] mjg59 No, that's Trusted Computing [02:02] DaemonFC[m] Very Trustworthy individuals. [02:02] mjg59 Completely unrelated to Microsoft's Trustworthy Computing initiative [02:02] DaemonFC[m] Lots of truth coming from that direction, let me tell you. [02:02] MinceR so, since you're the resident Treacherous Computing shill, please explain to me how having an Endorsement Key on the TPM enhances security [02:02] MinceR (not DRM, security.) [02:03] mjg59 It allows you to prove your identity to a remote site [02:03] mjg59 For most users this isn't a benefit [02:03] MinceR how? [02:03] mjg59 For corporate users, it is [02:03] MinceR it is bound to the identity of your TPM, not you [02:03] MinceR and it can be read from the TPM after de-capping it [02:03] mjg59 In combination with a platform certificate you verify that the machine has a specific serial number that was issued to a specific user [02:03] MinceR you'd be better served by a real keypair on a real smart card if you wanted that [02:04] MinceR who cares about the serial number of the machine? we're talking about proving the identity of a user here [02:04] mjg59 If you get a request from a machine associated with one user but which is authenticating as another user, you refuse the request [02:05] mjg59 Read up on Beyondcorp [02:05] MinceR i'm not buying it [02:05] mjg59 Outside that: [02:05] mjg59 You use the EK to establish an AK while you're in a trusted state [02:06] mjg59 The public half of the AK goes on your phone [02:06] MinceR apparently one big improvement in security on microshit products is that Backdoors10 finally ships with a keylogger built in [02:06] MinceR oh wait, that's actually the opposite of security [02:06] mjg59 On boot, before you type in your password, your laptop generates a signed PCR quote and pushes it over Bluetooth to your phone [02:06] smnthermes Interesting read: https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/linux.html [02:06] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-madaidans-insecurities.github.io | Linux | Madaidan's Insecurities [02:06] MinceR and why would i want to involve my phone in security, when phones are even less secure than PCs? [02:06] mjg59 And your phone then tells you whether your OS has been modified before you type anything in [02:07] MinceR Bluetooth... great [02:07] mjg59 Now someone needs to compromise both your phone and your laptop [02:07] mjg59 The transport layer here is entirely irrelevant [02:07] MinceR so all the attacker needs to do is break into the BT connection [02:07] mjg59 It doesn't need to be trusted [02:07] mjg59 No [02:07] mjg59 All you could do by breaking the BT connection is DoS the process [02:07] mjg59 You verify the communication is signed with the AK [02:08] MinceR and the attacker doesn't even need to modify your OS, since it's full of holes anyway [02:08] mjg59 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FobfM9S9xSI [02:08] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-"TPM based attestation - how can we use it for good?" - Matthew Garrett (LCA 2020) - YouTube [02:08] MinceR not only do microshit and crApple not care about the security of their OSes at all (outside advertisements, anyway), they also serve the NSA [02:08] mjg59 Oh, this is all using Linux [02:18] MinceR of course if you have to rely on BT to boot, you'll have to have BT enabled on your PC when booting [02:19] MinceR so how do i prevent an attacker from using BT to send keystrokes with which to implement an attack? [02:19] MinceR say, i switch to a root shell to do whatever, and suddenly they send a sequence of commands to change the root password and clear the console [02:20] MinceR maybe also ping a server the attacker runs so they know when to exploit this [02:20] mjg59 At this point you don't run enough of the Bluetooth stack to pair with arbitrary devices [02:20] mjg59 The kernel simply won't set up HID [02:21] mjg59 You can disable it again afterwards [02:21] MinceR well, if you have the connection key for one device, you can just send keyboard events over that, can't you? [02:22] MinceR i mean, does the BT stack mind if the phone also starts acting as a keyboard? [02:23] mjg59 Just don't include the BT_HIDP driver in your initramfs [02:23] mjg59 And then the kernel literally doesn't have support for it [02:23] MinceR i see [02:23] mjg59 The phone can do what it wants, the kernel will ignore it [02:24] mjg59 But thanks, that's a good question [02:24] MinceR np [02:25] MinceR it's something that's keeping me from enabling BT on my PCs [02:25] MinceR (it's an issue on phones too, but i don't trust my phones for security anyway) [02:25] mjg59 That's a legitimate stance [02:30] MinceR well, at least that's a non-DRM and non-windows-enforcing use for the EK, even if it is distastefully centralized for my taste [02:30] MinceR also, whatever authority issued that EK could have a copy of it and they could potentially break this scheme if they wanted to [02:30] MinceR or someone who breaks into their systems or forces their compliance [02:31] MinceR oh, and hopefully the TPM wasn't made by infineon, whose crypto library was found to generate weak keys or something... [02:32] mjg59 For the local state attestation stuff, having a private copy of the EK only works if you're in a position to spoof the AK certification [02:32] mjg59 The EK doesn't get used again after that [02:32] mjg59 Of course, a backdoored TPM could lie to you [02:32] mjg59 And generate a backdoored AK [02:32] MinceR what if they redid the AK-generation part? [02:33] mjg59 But a backdoored TPM could just lie in its quote anyway [02:33] mjg59 User has to re-trigger the AK generation to enroll a new public half on the phone [02:33] mjg59 So yeah if you can force the user to do that and have control of EKpriv you're able to spoof them [02:34] mjg59 But bootstrapping trust without any existing trust is basically impossible [02:34] mjg59 The goal isn't to make it impossible, it's to increase the number of people that have to be subverted [02:34] mjg59 Ideally to the point where it's more expensive than compromising you is worth [02:34] MinceR i see [02:35] mjg59 Anyway, thanks for the feedback [02:35] MinceR np [02:35] mjg59 I really do care about making use of this technology in ways that don't lock people down and which still provide additional security [02:35] mjg59 I don't think most people need to worry about the sort of attack that's blocked by this specific stuff [02:35] mjg59 But there are activists and journalists who do [02:36] mjg59 And I want to be able to give them a free software solution [02:37] MinceR seems to me this should work without an EK too, though [02:37] MinceR you could just use a random number (possibly generated on the TPM or smart card or token) [02:37] mjg59 Yeah, like I said the EK side of things is more useful when you want to be able to tie machine identity to user identity more strongly [02:37] mjg59 And that's basically only in corporate scenarios [02:37] MinceR and should probably work with a smartcard or token instead of a TPM [02:38] mjg59 Sometimes you really do care about the device identity, and don't want it to be easy to move that to a different machine [02:38] MinceR right, when the attacker would replace your machine or its innards [02:38] mjg59 For example, if you want to restrict access to systems that contain customer data to devices that you know are running your security tooling [02:39] MinceR still, they could extract the TPM and put it in the new machine [02:39] mjg59 So an attacker who gets user creds can't just access that from any machine [02:39] MinceR i probably skipped a lot of steps there anyway [02:39] mjg59 Yeah, but again it's not about making it impossible, it's about making it more expensive than it currently is [02:39] mjg59 Decapping a TPM and reading stuff out isn't super cheap [02:40] mjg59 And you're not going to have time to do it while someone's going through airport security [02:40] MinceR well, a lot of this stuff assumes a motivated attacker with lots of resources anyway [02:40] mjg59 Sure [02:40] mjg59 But https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora is the sort of stuff I have to worry about [02:40] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Operation Aurora - Wikipedia [02:41] mjg59 They've got better in the past 10 years, we also need to improve our baseline [02:41] mjg59 If we don't do anything to make things harder, they win [02:41] mjg59 And people literally die [02:42] DaemonFC[m] Coreboot might have an actual secure version of Secure Boot. I don't know. Does it? [02:43] DaemonFC[m] It could be a feature if the user actually had any control over who to trust. [02:43] mjg59 Not currently [02:43] mjg59 Eh it depends what you mean [02:43] mjg59 Chromebook-style Secure Boot, yes [02:43] MinceR chromebook-style sounds good to me [02:44] DaemonFC[m] Well, the way Secure Boot actually works, in practice, is that OEMs completely remove control of it from the user except on off and pre-trust Microsoft even if you don't actually trust Microsft. [02:44] mjg59 For UEFI it's still not fully secure - variable updates aren't verified, so anyone can add new trusted keys [02:44] DaemonFC[m] So that's not helpful. [02:44] MinceR their approach seemed much more reasonable than the UEFI/TC superbloated house of cards approach [02:44] mjg59 I would very much prefer a solution that involved less firmware code than is in UEFI [02:45] mjg59 But I work with what I have [02:47] DaemonFC[m] So, for a user that wants control it's increasingly a "just turn it off" thing. [02:47] DaemonFC[m] It's not secure and, worse, it's breaking your computer. [02:47] DaemonFC[m] If you need out of tree kernel modules, it breaks your computer. [02:47] MinceR a "just buy a device without it" would be even better, but we don't have a free market [02:47] DaemonFC[m] If you want to hibernate, it breaks your computer. [02:48] DaemonFC[m] If you want to toggle a kernel setting, it probably breaks your computer. [02:48] MinceR i bought a used pre-UEFI pre-IME laptop, but it's old :> [02:48] DaemonFC[m] Trying to do any more than the bare minimum to get Linux working at all with this abomination is way too far. [02:48] DaemonFC[m] Yeah, I too had a computer that was somewhat sane. Circa 2009-ish. Phenom II based. [02:49] DaemonFC[m] None of this user doesn't control anything shit. [02:49] DaemonFC[m] If the user is an idiot they will manage to install malware. [02:49] DaemonFC[m] Case closed. [02:49] MinceR and if i wanted to carry my secure daily driver machine everywhere with me, that one's too heavy for that [02:49] DaemonFC[m] If the user is on Windows, it's a race between malware and system corrupting itself. [02:50] DaemonFC[m] Plan to reinstall every year, minimum. [02:50] DaemonFC[m] Which is a problem if you can't do a clean install because of LOL NO VO. [02:51] DaemonFC[m] mjg59: So it's not just Linux users who would have eventually had this issue. In fact, there were how to guides to slipstream the Intel RST driver, which Intel doesn't even provide btw. You have to get it as an "update" and extract it to a folder on a Windows 10 USB stick, and then hit F8 like it's 2002 all over again. [02:51] DaemonFC[m] I'm sure this is a "Grandma will figure that out." issue. [02:51] MinceR :> [02:51] MinceR just like the issue of how to turn off Restricted Boot on a Backdoors logo compliant machine :> [02:52] DaemonFC[m] Secure Boot would be the least of your problems on a Lenovo Yoga eventually. [02:53] DaemonFC[m] Because Windows will completely fuck everything up requiring the OEM to re-image it, and you only get 12 months of warranty, and they may not even honor that. [02:53] DaemonFC[m] And that's how most people would see this problem. That or "Buy another computer. This one's broken.". [02:54] DaemonFC[m] I guess, flip side is that you can take it to a PC repair shop that knows what the hell is going on and pay them $150. That's also something a garden variety user might do. [02:55] DaemonFC[m] No matter how mjg59tries to spin it, this is a user nightmare and it decreases reliability and increases cost of ownership. [02:55] DaemonFC[m] Any reputable company that wanted to protect their brand would never, EVER, have done this. [02:55] mjg59 I'm not saying it was a good decision [02:55] mjg59 I'm saying that it's an understandable decision [02:57] DaemonFC[m] Understandable in the context of making every one of your customers hate you and say we're not doing that again. [02:58] mjg59 Pretty clearly not every one of their customers [02:59] MinceR clearly customers don't care [02:59] DaemonFC[m] Well, the ones who understand what the hell just happened. [02:59] MinceR most of them, i mean [02:59] MinceR the industry is suffering for crApple syndrome [02:59] DaemonFC[m] And in the wake of their crapware-reinstalling BIOS and their Superfish scandal, meh. [02:59] DaemonFC[m] Par for the course I guess. [02:59] DaemonFC[m] Fuck Lenovo. [02:59] DaemonFC[m] mjg59: They actually had to pay me a settlement of like $150 on this computer, btw. ● Nov 17 [03:00] DaemonFC[m] Because it had some other privacy violating piece of shit that I blew away years ago when I got rid of Windows. [03:00] MinceR have they learned from it though? [03:00] DaemonFC[m] I guess not. [03:00] MinceR s/for/from/ [03:00] DaemonFC[m] They just keep doing it and then paying the settlement. [03:00] DaemonFC[m] Hey, hell, I'm fine with that. [03:00] DaemonFC[m] $150 out of the blue. Okay. [03:03] DaemonFC[m] Pretty sure it was spying on other people, plus on top of Windows it can't get much worse. [03:10] oiaohm DaemonFC[m]: the fun with windows is even with windows 10. You print a document and its a game of dice if the document will print or the windows printer que will crash. [03:11] MinceR ah yes, the Year of Windows on the Desktop [03:11] oiaohm The big different using Linux is setting up printers could be a pain but once you got them printing no magic issues. [03:12] oiaohm As in the most regular defect you start noticing not there. [03:14] oiaohm Also the other one is I printed that I will just stop that print and you are on Linux and its already gone. [03:29] DaemonFC[m] Even with Apple sabotaging CUPS, things aren't THAT bad. [03:30] DaemonFC[m] I think the guy that was maintaining CUPS at Apple resigned or something. [03:30] DaemonFC[m] Maybe that will slow them down at removing things that it could already do because their users are far too fucking stupid to figure out web interface and such. [03:31] DaemonFC[m] I'm always very skeptical when they say they actually created an interface where a piece of hardware, a printer no less, configures itself. [03:32] DaemonFC[m] In fact, between the sad and sorry state of the drivers, the printers themselves, and the ink cartridge fuckery, I just send print jobs to FedEx and pick them up when I drop Mandy off at work. [03:32] DaemonFC[m] 13 cents a page is nothing compared to the 7 levels of hell that is dealing with an HP printer. [03:33] kingoffrance well the all-in-one "configure itself" means listening on x different interfaces y different protocols [03:34] kingoffrance i mean sure, its "configured" if you are against the concept of a firewall [03:34] DaemonFC[m] MinceR: Since Okular supports PDFs with fillable forms, I can even kick documents back and forth with immigration. It's really a nightmare all of the unnecessary questions those forms ask. [03:34] DaemonFC[m] Doing it by hand would be quite awful. [03:34] kingoffrance (not referring to cups, referring to modern printers) [03:35] DaemonFC[m] Well, with the state of the art firewall in my Netgear modem, I can open ports for all of the latest internet standards, including MSN Messenger. [03:35] *kingoffrance pictures web app wanting to open ports [03:35] kingoffrance dont give them ideas [03:35] DaemonFC[m] MSN wasn't as bad as Skype. [03:36] DaemonFC[m] Early versions of MSNP were even submitted as IETF drafts, oddly. [03:37] DaemonFC[m] There's some sites that have things configured so that you can just keep using the program with their server standing in for MSN or AOL Instant Messenger or whatever. [03:39] kingoffrance yeah game stuff is similar didnt blizzard get mad over a battle.net clone or something long ago? [03:39] kingoffrance old stuff i mean, lots of things are unusuable without a server running [03:40] DaemonFC[m] I miss Tiberian Sun, although the lack of anti-cheat was glaring. [03:41] *rianne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [03:42] *rianne_ (~rianne@host81-154-173-112.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights [03:43] MinceR DaemonFC[m]: evince does too [03:44] MinceR kingoffrance: well, with the wonderful train wreck known as UPnP, it can theoretically even get your router to make port forwards to itself [03:44] kingoffrance yeah couldnt think of the name thats what i meant :) ● Nov 17 [04:13] *gde33 (~gde333@84-106-154-98.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl) has joined #techrights [04:32] DaemonFC[m] I'm going to get Mandy some clothes on Black Friday. [04:33] DaemonFC[m] They say there's not going to be one and then they do it anyway in the middle of the third wave. [04:33] DaemonFC[m] Because Capitalism. [04:55] *GNUmoon has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [04:56] *GNUmoon (~GNUmoon@gateway/tor-sasl/gnumoon) has joined #techrights ● Nov 17 [05:17] *davisr__ (~davisr@cpe-70-92-166-130.wi.res.rr.com) has joined #techrights [05:17] *davisr (davisr@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/davisr) has joined #techrights [05:19] *davisr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [05:21] *davisr__ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [05:49] *chomwitt (~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc01:200:655e:ef87:f909:8731) has joined #techrights ● Nov 17 [06:09] scientes I feel like the word "documentation" also got 1984ed [06:09] scientes oh, he left [06:31] *GNUmoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [06:48] *drdogcow_ (~drunkendo@gateway/tor-sasl/drunkendogcowm/x-45413332) has joined #techrights [06:50] *obarun (~obarun@host-115-126-165-174.fibre.nautile.nc) has joined #techrights [06:53] *drdogcow has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) ● Nov 17 [07:12] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144445 [https://pleroma.site/objects/e77f1c10-ea3d-4b8b-93db-1066561da8ea] [07:26] schestowitz > https://github.blog/2020-11-16-standing-up-for-developers-youtube-dl-is-back/ [07:26] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.blog | Standing up for developers: youtube-dl is back - The GitHub Blog [07:26] schestowitz > [07:26] schestowitz > [07:26] schestowitz > GitHub does not stand for developers, it stands for Microsoft. [07:26] schestowitz > [07:26] schestowitz > This is the biggest lie yet. [07:26] schestowitz Re: A huge lie [07:29] *GNUmoon (~GNUmoon@gateway/tor-sasl/gnumoon) has joined #techrights [07:33] scientes no shit [07:38] psydroid I still have 3 AM2 desktops with Athlon64 (X2) and Phenom X4 processors for occasional use, but I'm moving more and more workloads towards more powerful and more open ARM hardware with hopefully more affordable RISC-V and POWER options becoming available over the next few years as well [07:40] scientes the new x86_64 chips have much better SIMD [07:40] scientes but of course computers spend most of their time waiting for user input, and compiling javascript [07:44] *CrystalMath has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [07:45] *CrystalMath (~coderain@reactos/developer/theflash) has joined #techrights [07:47] *CrystalMath has quit (Client Quit) [07:50] psydroid I do have laptops with Skylake and Kaby Lake (and even a few with Atom Celeron) processors, but those all have the dreaded UEFI stuff [07:56] *vZS1 (~vZS1@host-92-20-231-81.as13285.net) has joined #techrights ● Nov 17 [08:11] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The Real Richard Stallman is Not Coming Back http://techrights.org/2020/11/17/real-rms/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/79a9afa6-6735-42b6-8816-b1f6b2ce06cb] [08:16] scientes psydroid, I am just saying that free software is a long road [08:17] scientes FPGAs are much more flexible [08:17] scientes but I am struggling to get into them [08:22] schestowitz a bit of a straw man, imho [08:22] schestowitz btw, i think risc-v has its issues [08:22] schestowitz pertaining mostly to covert control [08:22] schestowitz but for many practical purposes it's the best we have at the moment, afaik [08:22] schestowitz raspi is another [08:23] schestowitz http://techrights.org/2020/09/12/raspi-freedom/ [08:23] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Richard Stallman Still Works to Improve the Freedom of the Widely-Used RasPi (Produced in the United Kingdom by the Raspberry Pi Foundation) | Techrights [08:23] schestowitz it is already practical [08:23] schestowitz soon it might also be free [08:23] schestowitz Microsoft ALREADY tried to undermine it, as it did OLPC, by infiltrating the raspi foundation [08:23] schestowitz to push vista10 on raspi, obviously... [08:24] schestowitz I think raspi managed to escape that suicidal path about 3 years ago [08:25] *notanamber (~luca@host-79-6-210-200.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #techrights [08:40] schestowitz hi all [08:40] schestowitz reagrding IRC logs [08:40] schestowitz is it worth producing text-only logs? [08:40] schestowitz plain text? [08:41] schestowitz I'm leaning towards, "no", as there's little gain except for people who dislike html [08:41] schestowitz roy@vonick:~$ html2text -width 70 irc-log-techrights-201020.html | head -n 90 | tail -n 20 [08:41] schestowitz MinceR it's nice to see that someone has brought CUPS back from the dead 20 [08:41] schestowitz 02: [08:41] schestowitz 42 [08:41] schestowitz Oct [08:41] schestowitz MinceR i wonder if the things the cupertino mafia broke in it will be fixed too 20 [08:41] schestowitz 02: [08:41] schestowitz 42 [08:41] schestowitz Oct [08:41] schestowitz schestowitz link? 20 [08:41] schestowitz 02: [08:41] schestowitz 44 [08:41] schestowitz Oct [08:41] schestowitz schestowitz Apple does not need printing anymore anyway... in the name of the environment they 20 [08:41] schestowitz only include the handset and you can use the old plotter from the 1980s 02: [08:41] schestowitz 45 [08:41] schestowitz Oct [08:41] schestowitz *GNUmoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 20 [08:41] schestowitz 02: [08:41] schestowitz 48 [08:41] schestowitz Oct [08:42] schestowitz there might also be better converters of IRC logs into text [08:42] schestowitz this one is a warping of the html output, using pypy [08:42] schestowitz so basically a two-step indirection [08:43] schestowitz but for ipfs text or plain text format may be preferable and more accessible [08:43] schestowitz due to whitespaces the file size for html and plain text (as above) is roughly the same [08:43] schestowitz which means that server storage requirements would double in the long run [08:49] *vZS1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) [08:50] *vZS1 (~vZS1@host-92-20-231-81.as13285.net) has joined #techrights [08:51] vZS1 You can just view them in a browser [08:51] vZS1 But I wouldn't be against a plaintext version as well [08:52] vZS1 Just read the article on RMS by fig. That was a nice start to the morning [08:52] schestowitz devi's advocate: [08:52] vZS1 I didn't know RMS promoted GitHub [08:52] schestowitz just paste/upload raw IRC logs [08:52] vZS1 He should know better than that [08:53] schestowitz but they're less readable than other possible forms [08:53] schestowitz they're more machine readable [08:53] schestowitz vZS1: he does not promote github [08:53] schestowitz and the article says as much [08:53] schestowitz he was early in warning against it [08:53] schestowitz but the tools he now promotes may be github-hosted [08:53] vZS1 Did I misread the article [08:53] vZS1 Hold on [08:54] vZS1 Let me check again [08:54] schestowitz in 2015 he already said avoid GitHub [08:54] schestowitz two alternatives to zoom etc. are github-hosted [08:54] schestowitz and we really need to tell everyone to abandon it [08:54] schestowitz I keep telling curl's lead dev [08:54] schestowitz [07:07] https://pleroma.site/notice/A1HW7rOLhcKIg9hkFk [08:54] schestowitz [07:07] [Notice] -TechrightsBN to #boycottnovell- mastodon.social | Daniel Stenberg: "@guenther@chaos.social they're not connected in a" - Mastodon [08:54] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-mastodon.social | Daniel Stenberg: "@guenther@chaos.social they're not connected in a" - Mastodon [08:54] schestowitz [07:07] GitHub is always compromised because it is controlled by a third party with very strong ties to the NSA and the RIAA [08:54] schestowitz He has just had his Twitter account compromised [08:55] schestowitz and then someone asked about 'his' github account [08:55] schestowitz these people should know better [08:55] schestowitz curl can be accused of being 'piracy'-enabing tool [08:55] schestowitz ipfs can be accused of all sorts of things [08:55] schestowitz terrorism, child pr0n etc. [08:55] schestowitz and then taken down, its main repo [08:55] schestowitz they play with fire [08:55] vZS1 > The FSF tells him to promote GitHub, and he does. They give him a platform, as long he says exactly what theyre saying already. [08:55] schestowitz ipfs is about dweb [08:55] schestowitz github is the very antithesis of it [08:56] schestowitz centralised AND proprietary [08:56] schestowitz new FSF pres uses shithub [08:56] schestowitz same with the latest board members [08:56] schestowitz those are unhelpful if our goal (or the FSF's goal) should be to get people OFF shithub [08:56] schestowitz which is only a GROWING threat [08:57] schestowitz and OSI seems to converge with github [08:57] schestowitz majority of OSI budget is now funnelled into github lockin [08:57] schestowitz and Microsoft group [08:57] schestowitz which is hysterically alarming [08:57] schestowitz OSI is basically a zombie at this point [08:57] schestowitz it has not a single employee [08:57] schestowitz it's GM is "interim" [08:57] schestowitz the only salaried staff is "interim" [08:57] vZS1 A lot of them have been bought out [08:57] schestowitz Deb Icaza [08:58] schestowitz vZS1: if they don't sell out, they get ousted [08:58] schestowitz then replaced by people who do sell out [08:58] vZS1 Yep [08:58] vZS1 That's the GAFAM MO [08:58] schestowitz political entryism and cult atctics [08:58] schestowitz happens a lot in British govt. [08:58] schestowitz Microsoft works to remove people who suggest we have sovereignty over our tech [08:58] vZS1 This is why I say we have a loose federation of projects helping each other [08:59] schestowitz I've not yet seen Google doing that [08:59] vZS1 Instead of a centralised operation [08:59] schestowitz I have many examples from British govt. [08:59] schestowitz seen things over the years [08:59] schestowitz people lost their job [08:59] schestowitz for no good reason other than not appeasing US tech empire [08:59] schestowitz they get painted as zealots or something ● Nov 17 [09:00] vZS1 They can't remove you from an organisation that doesn't exist [09:00] schestowitz and then people elsewhere get paid (bought) [09:00] schestowitz vZS1: figos once made a good point [09:00] schestowitz (he authored that article) [09:00] schestowitz he said [09:00] schestowitz once you become a foundation [09:00] schestowitz you can get bought [09:00] schestowitz companies buy a "share" [09:00] schestowitz and then they steer the project [09:00] schestowitz that's what seemingly happened to OSI and then FSF [09:00] vZS1 Pretty much [09:01] schestowitz I forgot LF [09:01] vZS1 That's why I stay away from foundations [09:01] vZS1 I have my own project [09:01] vZS1 I help out others when I can [09:01] vZS1 It works well for me [09:05] psydroid scientes, I worked with Cyclone III recently and I should have Quartus installed on this machine, but for some reason I can't find it anymore [09:05] *vZS1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) [09:05] scientes the FPGA I bought didn't include the JTAG cable [09:06] scientes and it is a non-standard plug [09:06] scientes cause it is smaller to fit on a m.2 board [09:10] *vZS1 (~vZS1@host-92-20-231-81.as13285.net) has joined #techrights [09:10] vZS1 And plug in an RSS/Atom generation tool, while I'm at it. [09:12] scientes I feel like the word "documentation" also got 1984ed [09:12] *Condor has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [09:12] scientes its because with the internet we are going so *fast* that we don't need documentation [09:16] vZS1 ETA ~2 weeks [09:16] vZS1 So I'll catch ya later [09:17] vZS1 Got to get chopping [09:21] schestowitz https://fair.org/home/drawing-all-the-wrong-lessons-from-medias-election-2020-failures/ [09:21] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-fair.org | Drawing All the Wrong Lessons From Medias Election 2020 Failures FAIR [09:21] vZS1 Btw [09:21] vZS1 http://jemarch.net/pokology-20201115.html [09:21] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-jemarch.net | Applied Pokology - GNU poke development news [09:22] vZS1 This looks like it'll help find out what's hiding in binary blobs [09:25] *birkoff has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [09:25] *birkoff (birkoff@gateway/shell/ircnow/x-htvynkhfdfytdpxs) has joined #techrights [09:27] *vZS1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) [09:34] *vZS1 (~vZS1@host-92-20-231-81.as13285.net) has joined #techrights [09:34] *mmu_man (~revol@vaf26-2-82-244-111-82.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #techrights ● Nov 17 [10:09] scientes I'm cold [10:26] schestowitz vZS1: it's already in Daily Links and bulltins [10:26] schestowitz but I didn't look too deep into it [10:26] schestowitz scientes: literally? illness? [10:27] schestowitz months ago you were sweating like a hog? Are you somewhere south of Russia? [10:27] *scientes has never seen a hog sweat [10:31] schestowitz Hog: I sweat like a HUMAN! [10:33] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #HowTo Use Bash printf Command for Printing Formatted Outputs http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144452 [https://pleroma.site/objects/d32e654c-2198-43ff-bee2-35c1fd654b63] [10:34] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: PrimTux6 Released: A French Educational Linux Distribution For Students http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144446 [https://pleroma.site/objects/a74f23f2-9154-444c-8f3b-36e065995298] [10:35] *davisr has quit (Remote host closed the connection) [10:35] *davisr (davisr@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/davisr) has joined #techrights [10:36] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Firefox 84 will be the last version with NPAPI plugin support http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144448 [https://pleroma.site/objects/32df2bfb-5407-480c-b5b1-7151bb931ca9] [10:38] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: LazPaint: A #FreeSW Paint.NET Alternative http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144451 #GNU #Linux #TuxMachines #News [https://pleroma.site/objects/47796ce7-7442-4210-9a6c-e0ba5b1ed69f] [10:41] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Top 6 Open Source Shells for Linux http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144449 [https://pleroma.site/objects/f1ad49e8-07cf-4792-9034-31b89f5ccc62] [10:42] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: KDE maintainers speak on why it is worth looking beyond GNOME http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144450 [https://pleroma.site/objects/2df521e3-56a0-4011-b8b1-7e546a886664] [10:44] schestowitz task: [10:44] schestowitz for all [10:44] schestowitz ZDNet used to have a writer called Jamie [10:44] schestowitz he had a sort of blog [10:44] schestowitz community gnu/linux [10:44] schestowitz did not have his own site [10:44] schestowitz he vanished after a while [10:44] schestowitz his surname is very common [10:45] schestowitz so there must be loads of brits with his name [10:45] schestowitz but.. [10:45] schestowitz if someone can find us his email address [10:45] schestowitz I want to speak to him [10:45] schestowitz to find out why he stopped writing there, and altogether vanished [10:45] schestowitz he would be about retirement age [10:46] schestowitz https://www.zdnet.com/blog/jamies-mostly-linux-stuff/ https://www.zdnet.com/blog/jamies-mostly-linux-stuff/ [10:46] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Jamie's Mostly Linux Stuff | ZDNet [10:46] schestowitz Jamie Watson [10:46] schestowitz that's his name [10:46] schestowitz "jamie watson zdnet email" [10:47] schestowitz nets nothing really [10:47] schestowitz https://www.zdnet.com/article/new-email-phone-scam/ [10:47] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-New email / phone SCAM | ZDNet [10:47] schestowitz he had nothing published since sept. last year [10:47] schestowitz 14 months [10:47] schestowitz cbs went bust last december [10:47] schestowitz the parent company of zdnet [10:48] schestowitz then the site became massive anti-linux propaganda apparatus [10:58] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: If you want to go far, together is faster (I). http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144453 [https://pleroma.site/objects/b5d3ff1e-95ee-4945-971b-27f6f0fc1dc6] ● Nov 17 [11:12] *oiaohm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [11:13] *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights [11:23] *Blukunfando has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) [11:55] schestowitz " [11:55] schestowitz The 2020 Staff Survey is now complete. Thanks to all of you who participated despite all the difficulties generated by the current pandemic! [11:55] schestowitz Some (worrying) preliminary results are available in English and French. [11:55] schestowitz ' ● Nov 17 [12:09] schestowitz A range of senior advisers dissuaded the president from moving ahead with a military strike. The advisers including Vice President Mike Pence; Secretary of State Mike Pompeo; Christopher C. Miller, the acting defense secretary; and Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff warned that a strike against Irans facilities could easily escalate into a broader conflict in the last weeks of Mr. [12:09] schestowitz Trumps presidency. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/16/us/politics/trump-iran-nuclear.html [12:09] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nytimes.com | Trump Sought Options for Attacking Iran to Stop Its Growing Nuclear Program - The New York Times [12:15] *birkoff has quit (Changing host) [12:15] *birkoff (birkoff@unaffiliated/birkoff) has joined #techrights [12:15] *birkoff has quit (Changing host) [12:15] *birkoff (birkoff@gateway/shell/ircnow/x-htvynkhfdfytdpxs) has joined #techrights [12:15] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144455 [https://pleroma.site/objects/a3923fe7-bfd2-416c-a0ad-6421d9bb1692] [12:18] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Qt 3D Changes in Qt 6 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144454 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c9594b79-8129-49bf-8ee5-e6c167f54f2c] [12:43] *obarun has quit (Remote host closed the connection) ● Nov 17 [13:14] *Blukunfando (~bkf@219.red-83-42-109.dynamicip.rima-tde.net) has joined #techrights [13:36] MinceR (cat) https://ircz.de/p/20081652 [13:36] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ircz.de | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post object (4828233) [13:46] MinceR https://hugelolcdn.com/i/699142.jpg [13:50] schestowitz gives you chicken wings [13:52] MinceR :) [13:54] schestowitz and watermelons or something ● Nov 17 [14:13] MinceR (no audio) https://i.imgur.com/I6imMa4.mp4 [14:17] XRevan86 MinceR: What is that? [14:18] MinceR rainbow [14:20] XRevan86 MinceR: What causes it to appear? [14:20] MinceR water droplets in the air [14:21] MinceR some of the clouds suggest it's raining [14:28] schestowitz how did it become 360 circular? [14:30] MinceR the viewpoint is high enough from that tower so that the ground doesn't obscure the lower half [14:34] schestowitz vZS1: thanks for all you're done lately. I will do an article now about IPFS [14:34] schestowitz later I will add relevant stuff to the top menu. [14:35] schestowitz earlier on I noticed distrotube now does gopher [14:35] vZS1 Yw [14:35] schestowitz seems like the WWW fatigue rapidly grows [14:35] schestowitz Microsoft ShitHub takedowns will help dweb [14:35] vZS1 Definitely [14:35] schestowitz the idea that we cannot let other firms kill everything at one "point of failure" [14:35] schestowitz and thus it's not worth even TRYING [14:36] schestowitz http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/143596#comment-27162 [14:36] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.tuxmachines.org | Single Points of Failure and Proprietary Entrapment (Microsoft GitHub) | Tux Machines [14:36] schestowitz Microsoft running like headless chicked now [14:36] schestowitz *chicken [14:36] vZS1 I already built a simple HTTP server with Go today [14:36] vZS1 3 simple files served [14:37] vZS1 Homepage, ipfs CID index, and RSS feed [14:37] vZS1 I'll hack on this over the next week or two [14:38] schestowitz "If #microsoft #github was standing up for developers, it would have told #RIAA to eff off while coming up with a better policy framework to deal with bogus #DMCA claims." https://bsd.network/@bill/105221670407420409 [14:38] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-bsd.network | Undead Bill: "If github was standing up for developers, it woul" - BSD Network [14:38] schestowitz vZS1: cheers, I will get into advocacy [14:38] schestowitz I read a lot about it [14:38] schestowitz as I want to understand what I recommend/write about [14:38] schestowitz it's not easy [14:38] schestowitz now I can pipe with ipfs cat CID | kate whatever [14:39] schestowitz so those objects being arbitrary streams is powerful [14:39] vZS1 I'm going to using my own outlet to publish about the technical stuff [14:39] schestowitz even more so than web browsers [14:39] schestowitz I wonder if server-side serving from ipfs as stream would be fast enough [14:40] schestowitz but that would sort of miss the point, being one central access point [14:40] vZS1 I can chuck my RSS feed at you, once it's ready [14:40] schestowitz which then connects to peers to serve [14:40] schestowitz vZS1: ok, good [14:40] schestowitz you could promote it through us [14:40] schestowitz crossposting with outward links [14:41] schestowitz some people have done that before, it helps them get indexed and find readers [14:41] vZS1 Thanks. I'll definitely use that privilege. [14:41] vZS1 I'm abandoning Reddit [14:41] vZS1 I haven't posted the in 2 months [14:41] schestowitz good [14:41] schestowitz reddit is horrible [14:41] schestowitz really, really horrible [14:41] vZS1 I've been working on an alternative way to spread publications [14:41] schestowitz you'll realise this only AFTER leaving [14:42] vZS1 It's almost ready now [14:42] schestowitz the addiction/habit can be blinding [14:42] vZS1 I just wanted to share my work with you. Because we're on the same side [14:42] schestowitz cheers [14:46] *CrystalMath (~coderain@reactos/developer/theflash) has joined #techrights [14:48] vZS1 Re: GitHub standing up for developers [14:48] *chomwitt has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [14:48] vZS1 Sure have a lot of delusional devs out there [14:49] vZS1 #deleteGitHub is one of our key objectives [14:51] vZS1 If people don't leave centralised development platforms, we're all doomed [14:51] vZS1 The people that control the infra control the ecosystem [14:54] schestowitz and the people [14:55] schestowitz http://techrights.org/2020/06/15/confessions-of-scott-guthrie/ [14:55] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | The Story About Microsofts Plan for GitHub Says a Lot About the Motivations and the Lies Told to Us for Over Half a Decade | Techrights [14:56] schestowitz will ipfs_howto.txt be published elsewhere? [14:57] schestowitz or can I use that as basis for manual to readers? [14:57] *GNUmoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) ● Nov 17 [15:01] smnthermes > [notice] Tux Machines: Qt 3D Changes in Qt 6 [15:01] smnthermes Qt 6? *sigh* [15:08] schestowitz vZS1: http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/Delete_Android_Apps_on_Github [15:08] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Delete Android Apps on Github - Techrights [15:08] schestowitz see yubico [15:09] schestowitz smnthermes: soon proprietary parhaps [15:09] schestowitz *perhaps [15:09] schestowitz unless they change their minds [15:14] oiaohm schestowitz: before github we had the sourceforge mess patching installers with crap ware. There has been a long term problem where to get good hosting. [15:14] oiaohm for open source projects [15:14] schestowitz soruceforge also sucks [15:14] schestowitz next question :-) [15:15] schestowitz > There has been a long term problem where to get good hosting. [15:15] schestowitz This question itself represents the problem [15:15] schestowitz it assumes must must outsource the hosting [15:15] schestowitz it's like saying, if not McDolands, where to eat? [15:15] schestowitz McDonalds [15:15] schestowitz as if cooking at home isn't a possibility anymore [15:15] schestowitz processed and prepared food isn't the sole choice [15:16] oiaohm Self hosting with the current tools is not really practical for everyone either. [15:16] schestowitz distributed development across the Internet can be done internally within the project [15:16] schestowitz like replicated setup on some developers' private machines or low-powered servers [15:16] schestowitz oiaohm: nonsense [15:16] oiaohm The tools for doing distributed development are not really developed well. [15:16] schestowitz if you cannot manage a project with some tools [15:16] schestowitz then your code [15:16] schestowitz the technical work [15:16] *psymin (~psymin@fsf/member/psymin) has joined #techrights [15:17] schestowitz will likely suck too [15:17] schestowitz it doing git by email, the way lkml is done, is too hard for you [15:17] schestowitz then go away [15:17] schestowitz as your code won't be any better [15:17] schestowitz the access barrier can weed up time wasters who cannot code [15:17] schestowitz unlike github [15:17] schestowitz this is why Torvalds rejects "PRs" from Microsoft GitHub [15:17] schestowitz drive-bt crap [15:17] schestowitz *by [15:18] schestowitz oiaohm: that's FUD >>The tools for doing distributed development are not really developed well. [15:18] oiaohm lkml still has servers that have agreed to keep archives. This is help for when emails get eaten somewhere by some server. [15:18] schestowitz but it works [15:18] schestowitz and thousands of developers use it [15:18] schestowitz most projects don't have that scale [15:18] schestowitz with a dedicated staff member [15:19] schestowitz I forgot his name [15:19] oiaohm Issue is scale has got the lkml the extra bits it need that it works. [15:19] schestowitz maybe Ukrainian [15:19] schestowitz for a project with 10 coders you can use a rapi [15:19] schestowitz even gitlab would run on that [15:19] schestowitz or gitea/gog [15:19] schestowitz you can back it up and replicate to other nodes [15:19] schestowitz it's not too hard [15:20] schestowitz and you have control over the whole chain then [15:20] vZS1 schestowitz: I'm going to do a full piece on IPFS. [15:21] vZS1 So I'd appreciate if you just kept the how-to internal [15:21] oiaohm As you have found with ipvs there is a horrible steep learning curve. This is what I mean we don't have the tools well developed in this area. [15:21] oiaohm Its something that need to be made simpler that a person with less skills wanting to start a project can get functional self hosting up in seconds that in fact works. [15:22] vZS1 You can write your own stuff based off it though [15:23] schestowitz yes, that's what I thought, but it's too early [15:23] schestowitz oiaohm: that has nothing to do with ipfs [15:23] schestowitz ipfs is different and for different purposes [15:24] schestowitz it's about censorship resistance, load-balancing, prevservation [15:24] schestowitz distributed development is inherently different, people commit to a server they jointly own and control [15:25] schestowitz they can even set up replication for it [15:46] MinceR https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/sapiens [15:46] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.smbc-comics.com | Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Sapiens [15:49] oiaohm schestowitz: the problem is having a server they jointly own particularly when a project is new and starting out. So those starting projects look to sourceforge/github..... as it is the lowest skill required. Also does not have trouble with ISPs that say no personal servers. [15:50] oiaohm The tools to make it easy don't exist. We have distributions for firewalls and that kind of stuff preconfigured but we don't have something that comes out the box configured for this is you starting a personal project on your own server p2p to the other developers. [15:51] oiaohm It a gap that need to be filled. [15:52] MinceR maybe there could be a GNU/Linux (or BSD) distro that would set up a home server running Tor hidden services and/or I2P sites [15:53] oiaohm Something like that setup for software development with issue reporting and so on could give a very small barrier to entry for those going self server software development. [15:54] oiaohm Its always simple to forgot the learning curve problem. [15:54] schestowitz learning curve can be good [15:54] schestowitz if you look for high-quality contributors [15:54] oiaohm and bad. [15:54] schestowitz and not a bunch of trolls shitposting and writing "hello world" programs [15:54] schestowitz code is not social control media [15:55] schestowitz and if there's a lesson to be learned from 'social' media [15:55] schestowitz is that it encourages and rewards [15:55] schestowitz harmful rumours and junk [15:55] schestowitz we don't want that in code [15:55] oiaohm Issue reporting to learn what is not working with your program learning curve being too high cuts that information off as well. [15:55] schestowitz mozilla shows what happens when they repel geeks [15:55] schestowitz oiaohm: give downloadable source and binaries [15:55] schestowitz not everyone must participate [15:55] schestowitz Linux is hard to participate in [15:56] schestowitz yet it's amazingly popular [15:56] schestowitz which debunks what you say [15:56] schestowitz many of the most widely used programs are NOT on shithub [15:56] schestowitz and they're doing fine [15:56] oiaohm Linux you have redhat and other collecting issues from end users and taking it up stream. [15:56] oiaohm That requires quite a bit of growth to get to that point. [15:57] schestowitz no shithub [15:57] oiaohm Early Linux some of the reason it took so long was poor reporting of issues. [15:57] schestowitz ok, you're partly trolling now [15:57] schestowitz I'll get back to work [15:58] oiaohm schestowitz: No I was around Linux in 1992. [15:58] oiaohm That not trolling. [15:58] oiaohm There were cases of issues being lost in the early system. [15:58] oiaohm when distributions started and started their issue trackers those issues started getting up stream more effectively. [15:59] oiaohm There are bugs in the Linux kernel developer basically plasted over by the distribution bug systems. ● Nov 17 [16:03] oiaohm schestowitz: You may not like lot of project that had old systems like the Linux still that have enough resources have mirgated to their own gitlabs. The is some serous problems with the Linux kernel development model mostly masked over by other layers like distributions the Linux has collected over the years. [16:03] oiaohm A new project starting out with the core Linux kernel system is going to run into some serous problems. [16:04] oiaohm Its not like github model is 100 percent wrong. [16:05] oiaohm Its not 100 percent right either. [16:14] DaemonFC[m] Gitlab works fine for issue tracking. [16:14] DaemonFC[m] And you can self host a Free Software version of it. [16:14] DaemonFC[m] Amazing that GNOME chose to do that. [16:15] oiaohm setting that up as a small project starting out is not that simple. [16:16] oiaohm This is the curve problem. [16:17] oiaohm If that can be made simpler using third party hosting as primary will come lot less appealing. [16:17] MinceR (cat) https://ircz.de/p/20081640 [16:17] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ircz.de | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post object (4827663) [16:19] oiaohm https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-Foundation-Servo Hmm really what is going to be left of importance at mozilla. [16:19] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Mozilla Punts Servo Web Engine Development To The Linux Foundation - Phoronix [16:20] MinceR lol [16:23] smnthermes Oh [16:23] *notanamber has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) [16:23] schestowitz lol [16:25] schestowitz [16:14] Amazing that GNOME chose to do that. [16:25] schestowitz KDE also has its own CI pipeline and code management systems [16:25] schestowitz and they do just fine [16:25] schestowitz millions of users, many contributors [16:25] MinceR not sure about that :> [16:25] vZS1 I'm building a bug tracker on top of IPFS as well. Just give me time. (; [16:25] MinceR they went for style over substance with 4.x and systemd with 5.x [16:27] schestowitz not because of code management [16:27] schestowitz more to do with mobile and android [16:27] schestowitz so they try to catch up with those things [16:27] schestowitz like the new pinephone [16:29] vZS1 I'm pissing a lot of people off with my work. I must be doing something right. [16:30] vZS1 I have a kind of gauge. The more ZDnet, TheRegister, and the like shit talk something, the more I pay attention to that thing [16:30] vZS1 Because they're mouthpieces for GAFAM [16:30] vZS1 You know they're being paid to trash talk people and projects [16:30] vZS1 It's a great litmus test [16:31] MinceR :) [16:32] vZS1 Giving away their hand without realising it [16:32] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Tails 4.13 Anonymous Linux Distro Released with Mozilla Thunderbird 78 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144456 [https://pleroma.site/objects/5270e824-789c-4a36-a42e-8ce89022fdba] [16:33] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux Lite 5.2 Review | Best Alternative OS for Older Hardware http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144460 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c57fa811-4e3b-4b9c-8f90-769baf9afa81] [16:34] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Bitwarden in Linux http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144457 [https://pleroma.site/objects/e96e3c39-4e59-4857-8327-c4ebb7cad4f9] [16:36] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Hands-on with the Raspberry Pi 400: Pleased and impressed http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144458 [https://pleroma.site/objects/2311e5d7-370e-489f-867c-f4a07bbd64c3] [16:38] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Firefox 83 Released With Warped JavaScript, HTTPS-Only Mode Option http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144459 [https://pleroma.site/objects/a6939229-4d31-41e9-a0dc-d0b4a990376e] [16:43] *balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) [16:49] *balrog (~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog) has joined #techrights [16:49] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144461 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c92aab54-6a98-4ad3-83f1-514b1faefd70] [16:53] MinceR https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/time-travel-2 [16:53] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.smbc-comics.com | Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Time Travel [16:58] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Proprietary Software and Security Issues http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144462 [https://pleroma.site/objects/8bbff1af-1316-443f-9269-5585dc63660e] ● Nov 17 [17:01] XRevan86 https://phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Google-Experimental-WebP2 oh come on [17:01] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Google Is Already Experimenting With WebP2 As Successor To WebP Image Format - Phoronix [17:02] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Open Hardware: Pi and Pine http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144463 [https://pleroma.site/objects/2f37638a-65cb-4bcd-85b6-b9ccf306cbea] [17:05] *cubexyz has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) [17:05] DaemonFC[m] The KDE LTS series seems to be fairly stable. [17:05] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Todays #HowTos | #UNIX http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144464 [https://pleroma.site/objects/1c051f4b-9b48-46bd-b5a1-6c89122bdae3] [17:05] DaemonFC[m] WebP2. Because nobody adopted the last one so here's another. [17:06] DaemonFC[m] Google will never put out a successful standard like MP3 or JPEG because nobody has time to adopt and standardize and accept a format before Google breaks the bitstream. [17:07] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: BSD and GNU/Linux Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144465 [https://pleroma.site/objects/88984d38-5f04-4f6b-9318-ecd442b40326] [17:08] DaemonFC[m] You can open files from the 90s just fine, and newer software creates more highly optimized files that still work on all the hardware in the interim. [17:08] DaemonFC[m] If you make an MP3 on the latest LAME encoder, an RCA stereo from 1998 would still play it and so would Windows 95. [17:09] DaemonFC[m] An exceptionally hardy standard, if not the absolute best one. [17:09] smnthermes WebM seems sucessful though [17:09] DaemonFC[m] And with these new formats, it's fire and forget. [17:09] DaemonFC[m] Nobody is really upstream supporting Vorbis even though it could be more. [17:09] MinceR or because MPEG LA members are just going to sabotage it anyway [17:10] MinceR as crApple did with webm [17:11] *cubexyz (~cubeman@maxhost.org) has joined #techrights [17:12] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 17/11/2020: PrimTux6 and Firefox 83 http://techrights.org/2020/11/17/firefox-83/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/b076c9d3-6e9a-409c-841a-10a240ee583d] [17:36] DaemonFC[m] MPEG LA "arranged a deal" with Google. Over those formats. [17:36] DaemonFC[m] So they'll be feasting on patent royalties until the cows come home. [17:36] XRevan86 MinceR: WebM is just a container [17:36] DaemonFC[m] Because those VP8 and 9 codecs already apparently infringe on at least some of their patent pool. [17:37] DaemonFC[m] And some is enough to extract concessions. [17:37] XRevan86 MinceR: The formats are: VP8, VP9, AV1 [17:37] MinceR well, not exactly [17:37] DaemonFC[m] This ridiculous codec proliferation is nuts. [17:37] DaemonFC[m] My laptop can hardware decode VP9, but not AV1. [17:37] MinceR webm is a container (matroska) and particular codecs [17:37] DaemonFC[m] So thermonuclear meltdown so that you can get marginally better compression. [17:37] XRevan86 MinceR: right [17:38] DaemonFC[m] They're in on this with the hardware companies because you're supposed to go hmm this is terrible time for a new computer. [17:38] DaemonFC[m] And that dav1d decoder at least tries to make the best of a bad situation. [17:38] MinceR not just marginally better compression, but also trying to get out of the MPEG LA mafia's stranglehold on our video and audio [17:38] MinceR and on the web [17:39] DaemonFC[m] I don't get what the win is here. [17:39] DaemonFC[m] It infringes on the same patents VP9 would and perhaps more. [17:39] MinceR though the "open web" is already dead, thanks to TBL and the likes of crApple, microshit and NETFUCKS [17:39] DaemonFC[m] MinceR: Well, the glass half full version goes that Widevine is at least better than Flash and Silverlight. [17:40] MinceR bittorrent and mpv are a lot better than all of those [17:40] DaemonFC[m] Because those were competing with a lot of the web platform that can be done in a browser whether you have DRM on or off. [17:40] DaemonFC[m] A success of, especially Silverlight, would have been a disaster that was 10 times bigger than Widevine. [17:41] DaemonFC[m] You couldn't really implement it on Linux, and Microsoft had that fake patent covenant where they say they won't sue a "conforming implementation", whatever that is. [17:41] DaemonFC[m] But no promise that they won't seed the patents to a troll who would, as they have done before. [17:41] DaemonFC[m] They even tried doing that with OpenGL, with the patents they got when SGI went under. [17:42] DaemonFC[m] You could have just as easily called Vulkan OpenGL 5.x, but marketing. [17:43] DaemonFC[m] Legacy OpenGL has a lot of stuff that piled up that no longer makes much or any sense on modern hardware. [17:43] DaemonFC[m] Microsoft made a similar leap with DirectX 12 but left the name alone. [17:43] XRevan86 I really like Microsoft, the last years they haven't done a single thing that could be considered malicious, a true champion of good practices. [17:43] XRevan86 https://windowslatest.com/2020/11/15/windows-10-is-now-nagging-users-with-microsoft-edge-recommendations/ [17:43] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.windowslatest.com | NO TITLE [17:44] MinceR lol [17:44] DaemonFC[m] Calling it Vulkan opens up the possibility of removing OpenGL entirely some day. [17:44] DaemonFC[m] Emulating it on top of Vulkan like DirectX on Vulkan does now. [17:45] XRevan86 DaemonFC[m]: It's called Zink. [17:45] DaemonFC[m] Or like MoltenGL and MoltenVK do on Macs. [17:46] DaemonFC[m] Free up transistor count. Reduce complexity and size of graphics drivers. [17:46] DaemonFC[m] I'm glad that 3dfx's position that OpenGL was bloated and terrible is finally resurfacing. [17:47] DaemonFC[m] 20 years after they went bankrupt. [17:47] XRevan86 DaemonFC[m]: OpenGL ES is not that bloated though. [17:47] DaemonFC[m] It certainly didn't get more efficient. Hardware was just getting better to the point that it could brute force its way past the inefficiencies. [17:48] XRevan86 OpenGL changed a lot in these 20 years. [17:51] XRevan86 But it's still more programmer-friendly than hardware-friendly, and that limits its application. [17:51] XRevan86 It makes more sense to have something programmer friendly implemented on top of something hardware friendly. [17:56] XRevan86 But maybe we'll see something better than OpenGL in this regard too. Something lower-level-ish but not quite. [17:58] CrystalMath i hate shaders [17:58] CrystalMath and GLSL ● Nov 17 [18:04] CrystalMath idk, i just hate opengl [18:04] CrystalMath when i do 3D, i just do it manually [18:04] CrystalMath i code my own transforms, and it's 100% software-rendered [18:05] CrystalMath that eliminates the advantage of having hardware acceleration, so that people without it (like me) aren't discriminated [18:12] MinceR lol [18:15] DaemonFC[m] The whole thing about GLSL being optional (and versioned so many times) and the fixed function pipeline being mandatory even though it was a holdover from the late 90s was really stupid. [18:15] DaemonFC[m] So there's that. [18:15] DaemonFC[m] At least the shader language is part of the baseline spec in Vulkan. [18:22] CrystalMath MinceR: see, i'm doing affirmative action towards not having 3D acceleration :) [18:24] MinceR affirmative action is bigotry [18:26] CrystalMath meh, OpenGL is bigotry [18:27] CrystalMath just write your own 3D engine [18:27] CrystalMath with its own modelview and projection matrices [18:27] XRevan86 on top of cairo [18:27] CrystalMath maybe [18:27] CrystalMath cairo may be a bit much [18:27] CrystalMath i would just do a standard X pixmap [18:27] XRevan86 on top of curses [18:27] CrystalMath :P [18:28] CrystalMath that exists actually [18:28] CrystalMath ttyquake! [18:28] CrystalMath but [18:28] CrystalMath i would just render to an X pixmap [18:28] CrystalMath then XCopyPlane() [18:31] DaemonFC[m] skip.....for now -Microsoft [18:41] psydroid https://twitter.com/jhamby/status/1328127497129533443 [18:41] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jhamby: I dont care about Andy Rubin one way or the other, since I never knew him personally, but because hes almost a de https://t.co/ZDPPRPPW9b [18:41] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jhamby: I dont care about Andy Rubin one way or the other, since I never knew him personally, but because hes almost a de https://t.co/ZDPPRPPW9b [18:42] schestowitz lol... hamby [18:42] schestowitz from Microsoft/Google [18:42] schestowitz Sanger [18:42] schestowitz Danger [18:42] schestowitz Don't ask him about back doors http://techrights.org/2020/02/20/no-back-doors-to-see-here-move-along/ [18:42] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Former Microsoft Employees Dont Like Talking About Past and Present Microsoft Back Doors (Designed for Spy Agencies) | Techrights [18:42] schestowitz he'll go crazy [18:42] psydroid lol [18:46] MinceR stranger danger? [18:51] schestowitz larry sagner [18:51] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Help out with FOSS as the Budgie Desktop team need translations help http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144466 [https://pleroma.site/objects/e89a1546-80e1-4fcd-b2bf-4e162ae3a251] [18:59] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Games: Caesar III, Stadia, HIVESWAP: Act 2, Mighty Fight Federation http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144467 [https://pleroma.site/objects/86fda66f-42d9-4bea-99fc-0bddef1de8b3] ● Nov 17 [19:03] DaemonFC[m] People on Windows don't even want to use Edge, so Microsoft resorts to sleazy high pressure vacuum machine sales tactics. and they still don't switch. So why would anyone put it on their Linux system, trust Microsoft's signing key, and then add a repo where Microsoft could install anything they want later? [19:04] DaemonFC[m] I mean, really, this is "open up the door and the sales guy throws dirt all over your carpet and then offers to clean it up" type stuff. [19:06] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Mozilla Outsourcing to Microsoft Proprietary Software via Linux Foundation http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144468 [https://pleroma.site/objects/aa060ed5-18c7-4943-b92b-a8f3350f6f73] [19:06] DaemonFC[m] But it's really more like that episode of I Love Lucy where she schemes to make money as a vacuum machine salesperson and then throws the dirt all over this guy's carpet and then the stupid vacuum can't even pick any of it up and just grinds it further into the carpet. That's the sort of product Microsoft's web browser always is. [19:07] DaemonFC[m] schestowitz: ^ [19:08] DaemonFC[m] If you had a reputable product that speaks for itself as far as quality, you barely need advertising, because people would just buy it and then tell their friends how good it is, and that's the sort of "money can't buy" advertising that you need, which is how Firefox got popular before Mozilla threw it all away and canned the engineers. [19:09] DaemonFC[m] There's a reason why Apple pummels people with advertising instead of just letting their products stand on their own. [19:09] schestowitz vZS1: until the pgp alternatives dump github [19:09] schestowitz they are no better than pgp [19:09] schestowitz or gnupg [19:09] DaemonFC[m] The advertising drives up the sales price because psychologists design the stuff to appeal to people's base instincts. Greed. Wanting to make neighbors jealous. Etc. [19:09] schestowitz imho, hosting with an NSA code host [19:09] schestowitz is no better than some of the things gnupg is accused of [19:09] schestowitz if not worse [19:10] DaemonFC[m] "Personalization", makes you have an emotional attachment to an inanimate object. [19:10] DaemonFC[m] And I'm all about customization. But come on..... [19:10] vZS1 Gnupg develops in its own servers, I believe [19:10] vZS1 Sequoia is on GitLab [19:10] DaemonFC[m] You can't really customize your iPhone. [19:10] schestowitz ah [19:10] schestowitz gitlab [19:10] DaemonFC[m] You can make it say "Good Morning, Dave." ;) but you can't sideload programs. [19:11] vZS1 Nettle is on self-hosted GitLab [19:11] schestowitz the company gitlab [19:11] schestowitz rather than the software gitlab [19:11] DaemonFC[m] So it's "marketing personalization". You can't truly make it yours. [19:11] schestowitz am looking into these [19:11] vZS1 Nettle isn't PGP though [19:11] DaemonFC[m] Dark psychology is everywhere at Microsoft and Apple. [19:11] vZS1 It's a generic crypto library [19:11] vZS1 In C [19:12] DaemonFC[m] They pressure and they scheme and they appeal to people's vanity and selfishness. [19:12] DaemonFC[m] Like a Vegas casino. [19:12] DaemonFC[m] Psychologists design casinos too. Every bit of them. They're designed to make everyone feel special. [19:13] vZS1 Sequoia uses Nettle as the crypto back-end. The PGP goes on top of the crypto primitives [19:13] vZS1 PGP is just a message format [19:13] schestowitz DaemonFC[m]: need to get people off Windows [19:13] schestowitz and NOT adding PPAs of Microsoft to gnu/linux [19:13] schestowitz it's an ongoing issue to tackle [19:13] DaemonFC[m] Yeah, but the need really surfaced with XP, in my opinion. [19:13] schestowitz same with deletegithub etc [19:14] DaemonFC[m] With the Product Activation. Even at 17 years old I heard that was coming and I was pissed. [19:14] schestowitz vZS1: thanks for these pointers [19:14] vZS1 Yw [19:14] schestowitz I am going to write some things soon [19:14] schestowitz today/tonight: more epo and upc though, more urgent [19:14] schestowitz zoobab: did you see bristows [19:14] schestowitz "SMEs" [19:15] schestowitz de gov says SMEs love UPC :-) [19:15] schestowitz Germany self-nuking by saying that SMEs love UPC [19:15] DaemonFC[m] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/17/us/politics/giuliani-trump-election-pay.html [19:15] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nytimes.com | Giuliani Is Said to Seek $20,000 a Day Payment for Trump Legal Work - The New York Times [19:15] vZS1 Germany is no better than any other nation state [19:15] vZS1 They all want to spy on people [19:16] DaemonFC[m] $20,000 a day to play into the racist mobster's fantasy that he may turn this around somehow. [19:16] DaemonFC[m] Despite his lawsuits going splat quicker than you can even write articles about it. [19:19] vZS1 > schestowitz: today/tonight: more epo and upc though, more urgent [19:19] vZS1 Once I get my infrastructure sorted, I'm going to get back to writing as well. [19:20] vZS1 Going to do a lot on public education about the internet, privacy, and security [19:20] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Tails 4.13 is out http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144456#comment-27164 [https://pleroma.site/objects/de93c3a9-a131-4ef7-b922-dfc6657f1167] [19:20] vZS1 Not so much rights, as I'll leave that up to you [19:20] XRevan86 https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&u=https%3A%2F%2Fmeduza.io%2Ffeature%2F2020%2F11%2F17%2Fv-gosdume-obsudili-zakon-o-neprikosnovennosti-putina-kommunisty-vystupili-protiv-im-predlozhili-sdat-mandaty-a-volodin-rasskazal-chto-proizoshlo-kogda-politiki-perecherknuli-pobedy-stalina [19:20] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-translate.google.com | Google Translate [19:21] XRevan86 I just hate this irony. [19:21] DaemonFC[m] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/11/17/shelton-fed-mcconnell/ [19:21] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.washingtonpost.com | Judy Sheltons Fed nomination in jeopardy after Republican senator Charles Grassley quarantines due to coronavirus - The Washington Post [19:21] DaemonFC[m] Trump is trying to put some crank who thinks we should return to the gold standard on the Fed. [19:21] DaemonFC[m] "Sheltons support narrowed after Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) said he would immediately quarantine. Three other GOP senators oppose her confirmation." [19:21] XRevan86 that those people, who try to defend the rule of law against Putin, are not allowed to immigrate to the US for being totalitarians or something [19:21] DaemonFC[m] I don't think that Grassley really needs to quarantine. [19:21] vZS1 I'll focus on the technical side of things. [19:22] DaemonFC[m] I think that they don't want to confirm her and they also don't want to take any heat for failing to do so. [19:23] XRevan86 There are whole layers of irony in this text, I hope it'll get translated. [19:23] XRevan86 https://meduza.io/en/news/2020/11/17/russian-senate-commission-proposes-legislation-on-labeling-election-candidates-foreign-agents that's also a good one [19:23] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-meduza.io | NO TITLE [19:24] DaemonFC[m] https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/16/south-dakota-nurse-coronavirus-deniers/?itid=pr_hybrid_experimentrandom_with_top_mostshared_1_na-ans_1 [19:24] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.washingtonpost.com | South Dakota nurse Jodi Doering says dying patients deny coronavirus is real - The Washington Post [19:24] XRevan86 schestowitz: Meduza fixed Atom/RSS. [19:24] DaemonFC[m] "Doering said she has covid-19 patients who need 100-percent-oxygen breathing assistance and who will also swear they dont have the illness that has ended the lives of nearly a quarter-million people in the United States since February. [19:24] DaemonFC[m] I think the hardest thing to watch is that people are still looking for something else and a magic answer and they do not want to believe covid is real, Doering told CNN in an interview Monday. [19:24] DaemonFC[m] Their last dying words are, This cant be happening. Its not real, Doering said, adding that some patients prefer to believe that they have pneumonia or other diseases rather than covid-19, despite seeing their positive test results." [19:25] XRevan86 Don't know when, I just checked and it's there. [19:26] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Best 5 Gnome extensions for better user experience http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144469 [https://pleroma.site/objects/27cdbb17-a013-4045-834e-5eacd1e86ff0] [19:26] DaemonFC[m] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ [19:26] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.worldometers.info | United States Coronavirus: 11,588,630 Cases and 253,177 Deaths - Worldometer [19:26] DaemonFC[m] ILLinois [19:26] *XRevan86 is very pissed at that US policy, being barred not even for doing anything incriminating. [19:26] DaemonFC[m] 525 dead today with only 16 states reporting so far. [19:27] XRevan86 but then again, not really out of character [19:27] schestowitz Today, after 14 months of silence https://www.zdnet.com/article/hands-on-with-the-raspberry-pi-400-pleased-and-impressed/ [19:27] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Hands-on with the Raspberry Pi 400: Pleased and impressed | ZDNet [19:27] schestowitz just HOURS after we mentioned his silence here [19:27] DaemonFC[m] I'll probably take the vaccine. [19:28] schestowitz XRevan86: meduza rss started working again yesterday [19:28] schestowitz *the English one [19:28] XRevan86 The English one, yes. [19:28] schestowitz [19:24] schestowitz: Meduza fixed Atom/RSS. [19:28] schestowitz ah [19:28] schestowitz beat me to it [19:29] XRevan86 I am glad that the Communist party still does worthy things for a change. Even if they're literally powerless and that has no practical effect (while being the second largest party). [19:30] DaemonFC[m] https://www.ajc.com/politics/georgia-election-recount-nears-completion-with-results-to-come/D5OXYX2ILFFX5KOGP72OAM3AI4/ [19:30] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.ajc.com | Georgia recount: Election workers try to finish count before deadline [19:30] DaemonFC[m] They did find 2,600 ballots in a Georgia county that weren't counted the first time around. [19:30] DaemonFC[m] They had an optical scanning error. [19:30] DaemonFC[m] They figure it would give Trump, at most, probably another 800 votes. [19:30] DaemonFC[m] Won't change the result but will give him ammunition to say rigged election, unfortunately. [19:30] XRevan86 Not really a party that could handle power though, it'd just crumble under its own internal disagreements. [19:31] DaemonFC[m] But most counties say that their totals are either the same or with differences in the single digit numbers. [19:32] XRevan86 "Is it authoritarian or is it libertarian?" Yes. [19:36] DaemonFC[m] Even if you gave Trump the benefit of every possible doubt in Georgia, it would fail to even take away 10% of Biden's lead. [19:36] DaemonFC[m] There's one audit allowed under the law and then they certify the results. [19:36] XRevan86 DaemonFC[m]: I don't think they planned this through, they acted fast. [19:37] DaemonFC[m] Even if they were going to audit it again, it's not like they'll take away another 1,000 votes from Biden's lead, if they even get there with the one audit. [19:38] XRevan86 Or maybe the only thing they wanted is to throw some "illegitimacy" onto the new administration. [19:38] DaemonFC[m] The first audit is a double check and you get almost 100% of the oopses figured out. [19:38] DaemonFC[m] So they're not going to do a second audit to get 1% of the difference the first one made. [19:39] schestowitz Trump lost [19:39] schestowitz old news(TM) [19:39] schestowitz the coup is the news [19:40] schestowitz like him trying to start a a war [19:40] XRevan86 2020 coups: Putin, Lukashenko, Trump [19:40] XRevan86 any other I missed? [19:40] DaemonFC[m] Even if he somehow got a million votes thrown out in this insane Pennsylvania lawsuit, it wouldn't matter. [19:41] DaemonFC[m] He gave up in Nevada and Arizona, and Georgia's Secretary of State WILL certify the results on the 20th. [19:41] DaemonFC[m] That's still more electoral votes than Biden needs. [19:42] DaemonFC[m] The Wisconsin state government told the Trump campaign that Wednesday by 5 PM is the only time they will accept a recount request, and that will cost Trump's campaign $8 million dollars up front. [19:42] DaemonFC[m] So it'll cost $8 million, they double check it real quick, and then they still certify that Biden won. [19:42] DaemonFC[m] This is absolutely pointless. [19:44] MinceR https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/blank [19:44] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.smbc-comics.com | Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal - Blank [19:55] schestowitz DaemonFC[m]: you may be missing the more pressing news [19:55] schestowitz A range of senior advisers dissuaded the president from moving ahead with a military strike. The advisers including Vice President Mike Pence; Secretary of State Mike Pompeo; Christopher C. Miller, the acting defense secretary; and Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff warned that a strike against Irans facilities could easily escalate into a broader conflict in the last weeks of Mr. [19:55] schestowitz Trumps presidency. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/16/us/politics/trump-iran-nuclear.html [19:55] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nytimes.com | Trump Sought Options for Attacking Iran to Stop Its Growing Nuclear Program - The New York Times [19:55] schestowitz he wants chaos [19:55] schestowitz and if he enters war he can delay things [19:55] schestowitz indefinitely [19:55] schestowitz it's an old trick [19:55] schestowitz the "wartime president" [19:55] schestowitz apparently gave Bush his second term [19:55] schestowitz he cannot win fairly [19:56] schestowitz the coup requires extraordinary circumstances [19:56] schestowitz and he still has a month until the electoral college does its thing ● Nov 17 [20:01] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: PinePhone KDE Community Edition Now Available http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144384#comment-27167 [https://pleroma.site/objects/9a2e933f-b00f-4ec1-9ab4-510e4a4f9dca] [20:21] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Todays #HowTos | #UNIX http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144470 [https://pleroma.site/objects/621bb40b-cb09-49e8-a53b-0f82dde14494] [20:40] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Getting started with btrfs for Linux [Former headline: Forget ZFS and use Btrfs] http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144471 [https://pleroma.site/objects/854062b9-df54-4093-bb5d-92687f396834] [20:44] MinceR https://i.imgur.com/n8IXLNj.png [20:45] XRevan86 MinceR: That's cultural appropriation. [20:45] MinceR :> [20:46] DaemonFC[m] He's trying to start a war because if he leaves office having plunged the middle east into chaos, Biden won't be able to do anything but that. [20:46] DaemonFC[m] I don't think it's about staying in office, I think it's about sabotaging the next administration into having to deal with a war nobody wanted. [20:46] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Kernel: PCH, DRM-Next, CET, H.264 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144472 [https://pleroma.site/objects/67b9cf3d-70aa-4c4d-b4ee-fcaa1faa0ffd] [20:47] DaemonFC[m] The sanctions on Iran aren't working. They're having an effect, which is to predictably prop up a regime that might have been dealt with internally by civil unrest and demanding elections and stuff. [20:48] DaemonFC[m] But people who are starving aren't trying to throw the bastards out when they hate you more and see a stable regime as at least maybe being able to fend off an external attack. [20:49] DaemonFC[m] I don't think that we're to the point of Belarus or anything. [20:49] DaemonFC[m] If we were, then the election would have been "Oh everyone voted for Trump don't you know. Like 90%, even.". [20:50] XRevan86 DaemonFC[m]: Belarus' regime is something like a junta. [20:50] MinceR cheeto hitler would need a few more terms to do that, it seems [20:50] DaemonFC[m] He is trying to "question" an election that he obviously didn't have enough control over to completely rig. [20:50] DaemonFC[m] And so we're not like Belarus, but it's not a far shot from it either. [20:51] DaemonFC[m] MinceR: With two more years before another major election, I think that many states will expand vote by mail and will plan on the delays at the post office. I think the delays will go down under Biden because they can start implementing new policies and put some of the mail sorters back together. [20:52] XRevan86 For that Trump would need a military/forces apparatus that would be willing to go off the cliff with him. [20:52] DaemonFC[m] But states that want to do mail elections can expand the window to request a ballot and receive it, and plan for it better. [20:52] XRevan86 then it'd be like Belarus' [20:52] DaemonFC[m] I think that Illinois needs to go through the budget line by line now that this progressive tax measure failed. [20:53] DaemonFC[m] They need to move municipal elections to either the federal presidential or midterm years, for starters. [20:53] DaemonFC[m] That could save the counties over $20 million per year on average over the next 10 years. [20:53] DaemonFC[m] It's not chump change. [20:54] DaemonFC[m] Lake County's total budget is about $560 million per year. [20:55] XRevan86 Apparently the population doesn't even believe the propaganda one bit, so it's pretty much just taking it hostage. [20:55] DaemonFC[m] So you save a couple hundred thousand a year. What's wrong with that? [20:55] DaemonFC[m] Nobody wants to change it because it's how they got elected, of course. [20:56] DaemonFC[m] If you bring more voters in, they may decide that they don't like you that much. You face a different electorate. [20:56] DaemonFC[m] Besides, it's their money you're wasting anyway. So what the hell? [20:56] DaemonFC[m] The Republican prosecutor, Mike Nerheim, was the victim of being a Republican downballot from Trump on a presidential year. [20:57] DaemonFC[m] If this was 2018, he would have skated to another term. [20:57] DaemonFC[m] Because the electorate in Lake County that threw out some Republicans from Congress was still more conservative than the one that came out this year and ended him. [20:58] DaemonFC[m] There were Mike Nerheim re-election signs every 10 feet from each other in the county, it seemed [20:58] DaemonFC[m] Billboards, radio ads, a barrage of Facebook ads I heard. [20:58] DaemonFC[m] You didn't hear a peep from Eric Rinehart and he still won by a big margin. [20:58] DaemonFC[m] You can spend and spend and a bad candidate is still a bad candidate. ● Nov 17 [21:00] DaemonFC[m] He not only had to run with Trump on the ballot. He had to run with the most disastrous crime stats in Lake County history and a pile up of prosecutorial failures that turned at least dozens of them loose to commit new crimes. [21:01] DaemonFC[m] You can spend money and blame it all on Chicago as the news says all of the offenders, almost, had Lake County addresses. [21:01] DaemonFC[m] Nobody was buying it. [21:01] *obarun (~obarun@host-115-126-165-174.fibre.nautile.nc) has joined #techrights [21:01] DaemonFC[m] I'm not reading this as a failure to campaign. He was good at campaigning, not so much at doing his job, so he did better than he should have in the end, anyway. [21:03] DaemonFC[m] I'm seeing this as a county of close to 700,000 people, which was absolutely horrified with what was going on even before Burn, Loot, and Murder sacked and pillaged their way down Lewis Avenue in Waukegan, and completely picked several entire Walmart supercenters to the bone. [21:03] DaemonFC[m] These are the fucking assholes that mjg59 Social Justice Warrior is on Reddit to defend. [21:04] DaemonFC[m] The people who have to live down the block from these criminals have....differing opinions than the folks who live in some ivory tower. [21:06] DaemonFC[m] And as Bernie Sanders once said, "Nobody cares about your damned emails.". [21:06] *chomwitt (~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc01:200:655e:ef87:f909:8731) has joined #techrights [21:11] mjg59 DaemonFC[m]: Uh I just spent 5 years living in downtown Oakland [21:11] mjg59 I'm not sure what ivory towers you think I'm hanging around in [21:11] mjg59 Three shootings on my block in the time I was there [21:11] schestowitz with kingly salary [21:11] schestowitz helps save even moar (!) $ [21:12] mjg59 I was literally a block from West Oakland, where the Black Panthers were founded [21:12] schestowitz tell us when you become a gnu volunteer [21:12] schestowitz with a salary enough just for food and rent [21:12] schestowitz mjg59: I get it [21:12] schestowitz you are African American [21:12] schestowitz Like those people who identity as such but are Irish or whatever [21:13] mjg59 schestowitz: I was correcting Ryan's misconception that I'm somehow unaware of the direct impact of BLM [21:13] schestowitz some billionaires identity as "philanthropist" [21:13] mjg59 Or have never lived somewhere impacted by poverty and social unrest [21:13] schestowitz they are so philanthropic that they worry about tax [21:13] schestowitz because that tax might "hurt" their "philanthropy" [21:13] schestowitz so stop taxing them :-) [21:14] schestowitz antiracist posting is cost-free http://techrights.org/2020/06/14/linux-foundation-with-zero-african-american-employees-in-a-country-where-13-4-identify-as-african-american-boasts-about-its-support-for-the-black-community/ [21:14] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Linux Foundation, With Zero African-American Employees (in a Country Where 13.4% Identify as African-American), Boasts About Its Support for the Black Community | Techrights [21:14] schestowitz ireland unrest wasn't so much due to race [21:14] schestowitz it was about the British [21:14] schestowitz and catholicism [21:14] schestowitz more like sectarian violence [21:14] schestowitz rather than a race issue [21:15] mjg59 I have no idea what the relevance of this is, but actual religion had little to do with the history of the troubles (there were catholics and protestants on both sides of the independence movement) [21:15] DaemonFC[m] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnpBPA7TBRs [21:15] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-DR EVIL - I'm one crazy mofo - YouTube [21:15] schestowitz IBM: we are "Commuinity" [21:15] mjg59 Religion was just a proxy for ethnic background [21:15] schestowitz https://www.zdnet.com/article/open-invention-network-linux-patent-protection-group-turns-15/ [21:15] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Open Invention Network Linux patent protection group turns 15 | ZDNet [21:15] schestowitz patents are "community [21:16] schestowitz software patents are "Safe" [21:16] schestowitz Love, ZDNret [21:16] schestowitz *ZDNet [21:17] schestowitz people are arses to each other [21:17] schestowitz they will always find excuses ro fight [21:17] schestowitz religion and ethnics are surrogates [21:17] schestowitz in the US it's politics [21:17] DaemonFC[m] They're worried that if they pay taxes, the Useless Eaters will get food stamps and that will interfere with their plans to commit philanthropic genocide. [21:17] schestowitz I care about how people treat the planet and species, less what book they follow etc. [21:18] schestowitz if you help bomb people for money, I'll fight you [21:18] schestowitz DaemonFC[m]: something like that [21:18] schestowitz many of the super-rich are closeted proponents of eugenics [21:18] schestowitz or depopulation based on their selection criteria [21:18] DaemonFC[m] Not very closeted either. [21:19] schestowitz the selection process may vary [21:19] schestowitz some say use contraception [21:19] schestowitz some abortion [21:19] DaemonFC[m] In the closet with the door hanging wide open. Like Gates. [21:19] schestowitz some don't even do it pre-birth [21:19] schestowitz but while you're still alive [21:19] schestowitz by shortening lives [21:19] schestowitz or by forced sterilisation [21:19] schestowitz apropos, IBM http://techrights.org/2020/08/16/ibm-powered-purges/ [21:20] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | The Full Story (With References) of IBMs Role in a Purge of Black People and Mixed-Race Couples | Techrights [21:20] DaemonFC[m] Yes, in Stargate SG-1, the Aschen plan to take over Earth was to make 90% of the humans sterile by promising a vaccine that would double life span. [21:20] schestowitz Watson supported Hitler a decade later. It brought him lots of money. [21:20] DaemonFC[m] Everyone rushed to take it and then it was too late. [21:21] schestowitz http://techrights.org/2020/01/26/advocates-of-population-control/ [21:21] DaemonFC[m] Isn't it a bit odd that they have no experience at all with Coronavirus vaccines. [21:21] schestowitz who? [21:21] DaemonFC[m] Then they cooked something up over 6 months that's "94.5% effective and very safe". [21:21] schestowitz they improve and act like one on TV [21:21] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Opinion: If You Advocate Population Control and You Are Yourself Doubling in One Single Generation, Then You Might be Hypocritical | Techrights [21:21] schestowitz and they pay the TV statiobns [21:21] schestowitz so the broadcaster play along with this 'theatrical' act [21:22] schestowitz scripted "segments" [21:22] DaemonFC[m] People with 5 kids be all like "World's full....Get off her!". [21:22] DaemonFC[m] :) [21:23] schestowitz Ted has 5 [21:23] schestowitz Warren 4 [21:23] schestowitz Gates 3 [21:23] DaemonFC[m] "But I have better genes so I'm just trying to compensate for all of the unchecked breeding from the out of wedlock single moms in the inner city!" [21:23] schestowitz average 4 [21:23] schestowitz doubling in 20 odd years [21:23] schestowitz very sustainable [21:23] schestowitz the likelihood of early death in this class is very small [21:23] schestowitz one kid should be enough for them [21:23] DaemonFC[m] Gonad the Barbarian's obituary said he had 18 grandchildren and 4 great grandchildren when he died 3 years ago. [21:24] DaemonFC[m] At 59! [21:24] schestowitz they want heir, spare, and hare [21:24] DaemonFC[m] So there is some truth there, schestowitz [21:24] DaemonFC[m] They're all criminals. [21:24] schestowitz Genghis Ginad [21:24] schestowitz Gonad [21:24] DaemonFC[m] None of them work. They all produce meth and shit. [21:25] DaemonFC[m] Occasional armed robbery. [21:25] DaemonFC[m] Lots of check fraud. [21:25] DaemonFC[m] I mean, and there's now DOZENS more because of him. [21:25] schestowitz Maybe your mom took some meth off them [21:25] schestowitz judging by some of the crap Madame Harome believes [21:25] schestowitz Harmone [21:25] DaemonFC[m] Demons, long hair, and colloidal silver. [21:26] schestowitz Trump voter(tm) [21:26] schestowitz how's that for a tattoo [21:26] DaemonFC[m] Well, of course she is. [21:26] DaemonFC[m] If that's not bad enough, my dad is even crazier than that. [21:26] DaemonFC[m] Voted Trump too. [21:27] DaemonFC[m] Filled his "study" up with porn and Deepak Chopra books. [21:28] DaemonFC[m] Liked to attend seances, donates to Scientology. [21:28] DaemonFC[m] Likes incense and Dungeons and Dragons. [21:29] DaemonFC[m] You know, my mom, when she wants to insult me, just calls me Carl. [21:29] DaemonFC[m] I told her "GRANDMA!". [21:29] DaemonFC[m] She stopped calling me Carl, at least. [21:30] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Calamares and Plasma Look-and-Feel http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144474 [https://pleroma.site/objects/6b86a121-0563-485a-a5f4-dbc0909f8e6b] [21:30] DaemonFC[m] schestowitz: There's some real characters in my family. I don't know how I didn't end up just like them, honestly. Can't be all genes. [21:30] DaemonFC[m] You know? [21:31] DaemonFC[m] But if you believe what eugenicists like Bill Gates are putting out, then bad genes mean bad children. [21:31] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: $6 billion Linux deal? SUSE IPO rumored http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144473 [https://pleroma.site/objects/40a8567e-7b74-45ea-941e-c79638657da3] [21:31] DaemonFC[m] The only thing separating them from any run down schmuck with a pair of khakis and a Walmart time clock badge is their parents were rich. [21:31] DaemonFC[m] Started them off with the best education opportunities and lots of money and social connections. [21:32] DaemonFC[m] When you start at the free throw line, it's a hell of a lot easier. [21:32] schestowitz [21:27] Filled his "study" up with porn and Deepak Chopra books. [21:32] schestowitz Chopra LOL [21:32] schestowitz I fought with him online [21:32] schestowitz like a decade ago [21:33] DaemonFC[m] schestowitz: The big difference between making a lot of money and making a modest amount of money is that with a modest amount of money, you can't afford mistakes and inefficiencies in your operations. [21:33] schestowitz DaemonFC[m]: no need to bed for VC >> When you start at the free throw line, it's a hell of a lot easier. [21:33] schestowitz *beg [21:33] DaemonFC[m] We live better than some of our family members who have twice (or more) income. [21:33] vZS1 The situation with Ireland might get tense again with all the Brexit madness [21:34] schestowitz Brexshit [21:34] vZS1 We already lost one young journalist not long ago [21:34] DaemonFC[m] I agree completely with Nancy Pelosi about that. [21:34] schestowitz maybe poltician also [21:34] schestowitz (Cox) [21:34] vZS1 People are quick to forget [21:34] vZS1 Possibly there too, yes. Jo Cox. [21:35] DaemonFC[m] No US-UK trade deal if they renege on their agreement with Northern Ireland. [21:35] schestowitz DaemonFC[m]: Pelosi net worth is very high [21:35] DaemonFC[m] In fact, I'd go further and have the Treasury sanction them for it. [21:35] schestowitz oh, brexit would be hurt indeed by biden win [21:35] DaemonFC[m] It's the same sort of attitude as China has about Hong Kong, just take over and then poison them to death. [21:35] schestowitz i ddin't even pause to think of that [21:35] schestowitz brexit was publicly promoted by trump [21:35] schestowitz a CANDIDATE trump [21:36] schestowitz with his pseudo-populism [21:36] *inky (~inky@141.136.76.178) has joined #techrights [21:36] DaemonFC[m] I would come down on them for violating the Good Friday accord (even though that didn't go nearly far enough for autonomy), and I would come down hard. [21:36] DaemonFC[m] And I really really hope the Democrats do that. [21:37] DaemonFC[m] You think just Brexit is going to ruin your finances. [21:37] DaemonFC[m] Wait until the sanctions start. [21:38] DaemonFC[m] Sanctions are better suited to inflict upon people who were used to an abundance in the first place. [21:38] DaemonFC[m] Who still have elections. [21:45] MinceR 17 215205 < XRevan86> For that Trump would need a military/forces apparatus that would be willing to go off the cliff with him. [21:45] MinceR maybe that's what the whole polarization deal is about [21:46] XRevan86 MinceR: No, that's not enough at all. [21:47] *aindilis has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) [21:48] XRevan86 MinceR: You need something more concrete. [21:50] schestowitz [21:44] [Notice] -viera to #boycottnovell-social- Dr. Roy Schestowitz (): #SJVN pushing #microsoft #propaganda and #proprietarySoftware with back doors in #zdnet again [https://pleroma.site/objects/f2ad5c2d-2ec8-4017-8dab-eea5e9659b06] [21:50] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-pleroma.site [21:50] schestowitz [21:45] [Notice] -viera to #boycottnovell-social- Dr. Roy Schestowitz (): If I started writing "$JVN" people would say it's immature, just as they try to paint critics of #microsoft crimes as children [https://pleroma.site/objects/7cc0cfa3-bae5-4672-96ac-f3b2d3d1967a] [21:50] schestowitz [21:47] [Notice] -viera to #boycottnovell-social- Dr. Roy Schestowitz (): SJVN: "I know it's still hard for some of you to wrap your minds around it, but Microsoft..."I know it's still hard for some of you to wrap your minds around it, but Microsoft pays a big portion of SJVN's salary.#boycottZDNet http://techrights.org/wiki/ind... [https://pleroma.site/objects/c2ac5dce-7574-47c4-a0ff-3933e8ce1b92] [21:50] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-pleroma.site [21:50] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights- ( status 404 @ http://techrights.org/wiki/ind ) [21:50] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-pleroma.site [21:51] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144475 [https://pleroma.site/objects/7f6c7d22-21af-45a6-bf89-6cb9ca3c3a59] [21:56] *GNUmoon (~GNUmoon@gateway/tor-sasl/gnumoon) has joined #techrights ● Nov 17 [22:08] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Mozilla Firefox 83 Now Available for Download Whats New http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144459#comment-27168 [https://pleroma.site/objects/b068afbf-c881-4585-bfed-7aa61ab1e050] [22:10] DaemonFC[m] Playing around with the Snap of Chromium. [22:11] DaemonFC[m] I don't see what all the fuss is about. It works and behaves identically to before. [22:11] DaemonFC[m] With the bonus of being sandboxed by snap. [22:11] MinceR finally you can chromium while depending not only on google, but also canonical [22:12] MinceR and maybe also ibm [22:15] *GNUmoon has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) [22:20] *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation term) [22:20] *schestowitz (~schestowi@host81-154-173-112.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights [22:20] *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) [22:20] *schestowitz (~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights [22:26] *aindilis (~aindilis@172-12-3-117.lightspeed.sgnwmi.sbcglobal.net) has joined #techrights [22:30] vZS1 For most software, you can just make a new user and group and just build the source in there. Keep the stuff in that user's home directory. [22:30] vZS1 If you mess up, you can just try again. [22:31] -viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: IBM/Red Hat Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144476 [https://pleroma.site/objects/4ed65d8a-62eb-4ccc-8632-dac9b883c520] [22:32] schestowitz you end up trusting orgs and people based on track record [22:32] schestowitz those with clean track records don't wish to tarnish that [22:32] schestowitz those who have a past that's rogue, like Microsoft, will never be trusted [22:32] schestowitz but they can bribe the media to pretend otherwise [22:32] schestowitz e.g. Microsoft "fights fort developers" [22:33] vZS1 I don't even trust myself most of the time. I do a lot of dumb stuff [22:33] schestowitz meaning, Microsoft fights to keep devs coding for GITHUB... i.e. for itself [22:33] schestowitz just published http://techrights.org/2020/11/17/government-of-germany-upc-lies/ [22:33] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | The Stench Follows and Spreads: Another UPC Lie Now Followed by Lies From the Government of Germany | Techrights [22:34] DaemonFC[m] Georgia says it will certify Biden's win by Friday, which means the 16 electoral votes are locked in. [22:34] DaemonFC[m] The Trump campaign pretty much pulled out of Georgia. [22:35] schestowitz so he can start a war [22:35] schestowitz or golf [22:35] schestowitz or shoot himself with a revolver [22:35] schestowitz after raping his daughter or something [22:35] DaemonFC[m] The sooner the states certify their results, the sooner this charade that Trump will sue his way back into the White House is finished. [22:35] schestowitz either way, he won't leave the WH east [22:35] schestowitz easy [22:35] schestowitz he'll cause more trouble, somehow [22:36] schestowitz "there's always a way..." [22:37] vZS1 Don't forget all the junk they bundle in to spy on you [22:38] vZS1 Telemetry [22:38] vZS1 UX [22:39] vZS1 I wrote the skeleton of my http server today in 41 lines of Go. Going to use other tools to generate the pages (files). [22:40] vZS1 I built the ipfs bot for the TR node in well under 100 lines of shell code [22:41] vZS1 What we have in our hands in the wholesale duping of users [22:41] vZS1 on our hands is* [22:42] vZS1 All thes [22:43] vZS1 All these frameworks are just a way for GAFAM to absorb your work into their ecosystem [22:43] vZS1 Screw compatibility. Build what works for you [22:44] vZS1 Follow standards that really matter. Not bullshittery [22:48] vZS1 TCP and UDP are standards. Some half-baked data structure built on top of JSON isn't [22:51] DaemonFC[m] Yeah, Phoronix did an article where he benchmarked Windows 10 with the default telemetry and the most you could turn it off. [22:51] DaemonFC[m] It was like an 8% drag on the system in the default state. [22:51] DaemonFC[m] 8% to run all the spyware. [22:52] DaemonFC[m] Obviously no user would want 8% of their computer's performance to go away so Microsoft could spy on them, but that's what happens. [22:52] DaemonFC[m] And 8% is basically the CPU performance difference between this year's CPU and next year's of the same price point. [22:52] DaemonFC[m] So Windows is downgrading your CPU to last year's model with the spyware. [22:52] vZS1 Don't forget all the bandwidth [22:54] DaemonFC[m] The electric company says I'm using about 7 kilowatt hours per day. [22:54] DaemonFC[m] That's actually not too bad. [22:54] vZS1 I turn off everything after I'm done [22:54] DaemonFC[m] There's still a fuckton of Linux tunables on power consumption that are off by default but which have worked fine for years now on Skylake. [22:55] DaemonFC[m] mjg59: Any comment on that? [22:55] vZS1 The only thing that stays on are stuff like the fridge, my Rpi, couple other microcontrollers [22:55] DaemonFC[m] You run powertop autotune and flip them on at boot and it all works fine. [22:55] DaemonFC[m] And the difference is like 30% better power consumption than the Linux defaults. [22:56] DaemonFC[m] I guess nobody at Intel is worried about, you know, user experience or the environment or anything. [22:56] DaemonFC[m] On Ubuntu, they have powertop, but no systemd service for it, so I straight up copied the one from Fedora. [22:57] DaemonFC[m] Obviously, 30% less power means I pay Communist Edision 30% less to run my laptop. [22:58] DaemonFC[m] *Edison [22:58] DaemonFC[m] There's no other way to put what's going on with energy in Illinois than Communism, really. ● Nov 17 [23:00] DaemonFC[m] The state gave ComEd $2.3 billion dollars in one go with the Future Energy Jobs Act, then once the ink was dry, ComEd threatened to shut down two of the nuclear reactors the state "saved" unless there was a second bailout bill, back to back. [23:00] DaemonFC[m] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/environment/ct-exelon-nuclear-plants-shut-down-20200828-qmk6z3d5mrgipeahb56vugq3za-story.html [23:00] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.chicagotribune.com | Without another bailout, Exelon plans to close two Illinois nuclear plants next year - Chicago Tribune [23:01] DaemonFC[m] Then after it came to light that a lot of that was direct cash bribes to Speaker Mike Madigan and other Democrats, (still no indictments....hmmmm), ComEd pointed out how much lower your energy bill was after they took it from you out of the tax money the state doesn't actually have, and thus borrowed at 6% like usual. [23:03] DaemonFC[m] Of course they want to invest in technologies that have an unintended side effect of lowering CO2 emissions. [23:04] DaemonFC[m] The trick is to get you to pay for the investments so that they can keep the money they save by not generating that amount of power. [23:04] DaemonFC[m] By that logic, the state should have paid for my car repair bills because I picked up a few miles per gallon in the process. [23:04] DaemonFC[m] Wish I could do some of that there lobbying I keep hearing about. [23:06] mjg59 DaemonFC[m]: Because they *don't* work in all cases and they cause data corruption in the cases they don't work [23:06] mjg59 Because, again, Intel won't tell us how to figure out and apply the appropriate policy [23:07] DaemonFC[m] I've never experienced any data corruption on this system with it all on. [23:07] vZS1 DaemonFC[m]: if you want to look for the stats without relying on tools, have a look at "Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-power" in the Linux Git repo [23:07] DaemonFC[m] Although I think forcing panel self refresh does taint the kernel. Oh well. [23:08] vZS1 A lot of the stuff there isn't in a lot of tools because they're fairly new data objects [23:08] mjg59 DaemonFC[m]: Right. It'll work fine on most systems. And on the ones it doesn't work, it'll appear to be fine until suddenly your data is gone. [23:08] vZS1 Quite a few DOs from 2020 [23:08] DaemonFC[m] Uh, Windows causes a lot of data corruption because it crashes all the time and that's just what it does. [23:08] mjg59 So we can't do it by default [23:08] DaemonFC[m] I'd say Linux has been remarkable compared to that. [23:08] mjg59 I tried multiple times to come up with an implementation that worked for everybody [23:09] mjg59 And I failed [23:09] mjg59 So we stick to the safe defaults [23:09] DaemonFC[m] Well, 4 years, dozens of kernel versions later... Nope. No corruption. [23:09] mjg59 Congratulations, you have one of the systems where it's fine [23:09] mjg59 Unless you swap out your SSD, in which case there's a chance it'll stop being fine [23:10] DaemonFC[m] The only time I had to do anything at all untowards to my system was when Fedora pulled in those bad kernels. [23:10] mjg59 Don't really know what else to say here [23:10] DaemonFC[m] The ones where Intel backed out GPU power management completely for an entire series. [23:10] DaemonFC[m] So, that was a big factor in ditching Fedora. [23:10] DaemonFC[m] They don't even care if it's broken. They'll knowingly ship crap and tell you oh well. [23:10] mjg59 Panel self refresh won't tend to cause data corruption, but if it's on and the panel doesn't actually support it then you'll just get a screen that'll randomly go blank [23:11] DaemonFC[m] Of course that was late last year so Kubuntu 20.04 wasn't even branched at the time iirc. [23:11] mjg59 So it's only enabled when the panel explicitly says it's supported and claims to have timing parameters that match the spec [23:11] mjg59 Some panels lie about that and will work fine if you force it on [23:11] *GNUmoon (~GNUmoon@gateway/tor-sasl/gnumoon) has joined #techrights [23:11] mjg59 But we can't do that by default [23:11] mjg59 We can't change the ASPM policy by default because some network hardware will start corrupting packets [23:12] mjg59 So we go with whatever the firmware set in the first place [23:12] DaemonFC[m] Last time I had screen glitches was kernel 4.8 which was fine because it also didn't have a driver for my wifi until 4.9. [23:13] DaemonFC[m] At the time, PSR also didn't work, (at least with Wayland, it froze after GDM loaded, but with X it didn't.) Now it seems to work either way, but I'm on KDE where I'm on X again anyway due to that. [23:13] DaemonFC[m] But oh well because Wayland is junk. [23:13] DaemonFC[m] For practical, daily use, it's junk. [23:13] DaemonFC[m] Nobody cares what it can do if it ruins Wine and a bunch of other stuff too. [23:14] MinceR https://techcrunch.com/2020/11/17/microsoft-pluton-security-chip-intel-amd-qualcomm/ [23:14] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Microsoft reveals Pluton, a custom security chip built into Intel, AMD and Qualcomm processors TechCrunch [23:14] MinceR as if we didn't have enough hardware backdoors already [23:14] DaemonFC[m] Again, Fedora knowingly ships broken junk and then includes an X11 session "for no particular reason and because Wayland works great". [23:15] DaemonFC[m] These Fedora people are like listening to Chicago politicians. [23:15] DaemonFC[m] All we need is another tax increase in the middle of the fires and looting and we'll be a world class city again. [23:17] DaemonFC[m] There really is a big difference between Illinois and Chicago, I've learned. [23:17] DaemonFC[m] At least nobody in Waukegan (yet) has promised a city stimulus check to illegal immigrants funded by a property tax increase. [23:18] DaemonFC[m] mjg59: Should really consider Chicago. He can practice what he preaches. While they're raising the bridges to slow down Burn, Loot, and Murder, and Kim Foxx (recently re-elected by Burn, Loot, and Murder voters) lets them go, he can pay taxes that are spiraling out of control. [23:18] MinceR fits cancerd pretty well [23:19] DaemonFC[m] For all sorts of Social Justice Warrior-ey things. [23:19] MinceR more broken junk to go with the rest of the broken junk [23:19] *inky has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) [23:19] DaemonFC[m] I wonder who'll buy the Trump building out of the bankruptcy sale. [23:20] DaemonFC[m] Maybe they finally will get his name off it. [23:20] MinceR i've read that it would just go to deutsche bank [23:20] MinceR who are also assholes [23:20] DaemonFC[m] Yeah, they're the ones who propped up this loser to begin with. [23:20] DaemonFC[m] Made it look like he knew anything about running a business that makes money. [23:21] MinceR they're also the ones who pay the useless overpaid suits who decided that people who work from home should be taxed better to punish them for not having to deal with some of the shit in life [23:21] MinceR i think deutsche bank should be taxed extra instead [23:21] MinceR they can apparently afford to come up with useless bullshit like this [23:21] DaemonFC[m] I supported Bernie Sanders in two primaries, back to back, watched him lose twice. [23:22] DaemonFC[m] Clinton was such a weak candidate that it not only made Sanders look like he had a lot of relative support, but it also made Trump win in a photo finish despite how awful he is. [23:23] DaemonFC[m] I don't really care if my decision is popular or if I'm backing someone that I think most people will agree with. [23:23] *inky (~inky@141.136.76.178) has joined #techrights [23:23] XRevan86 It was a good try by Bernie, but the party just didn't like him. [23:23] DaemonFC[m] I think that the majority is frequently wrong and disastrously so, and there is a mountain of evidence to support that. [23:26] mjg59 DaemonFC[m]: The violent crime and homicide rates in Oakland are higher than they are in Chicago. What, exactly, do you think I haven't experienced? [23:27] CrystalMath MinceR: here in Serbia (and also in Kosovo) we have Lake Trump [23:28] CrystalMath MinceR: it's a lake right on the border [23:28] *inky has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) [23:28] CrystalMath it was named after the man who was a great intermediary, and helped us establish air travel between Belgrade and Pristina, as well as resolve many major disputes [23:29] CrystalMath and yes i'm talking about US president Donald J. Trump [23:29] CrystalMath the same man who made the US energy-independent for the first time since 1957 [23:29] CrystalMath the first US president to visit North Korea [23:30] CrystalMath the president who pardoned black people who were unfairly arrested [23:31] CrystalMath the republican who got more republican votes than any republican before him [23:31] CrystalMath err [23:31] CrystalMath more BLACK votes [23:31] CrystalMath i messed up that sentence worse than Biden [23:31] CrystalMath the republican who got more african american votes than any republican before him [23:32] CrystalMath (to clarify) [23:35] CrystalMath the president who reduced the unemployment rate, built up a strong economy, pulled troops out of many foreign nations [23:35] CrystalMath how can i not say that Trump was the greatest president the US had in the last 30 years? [23:35] DaemonFC[m] https://www.npr.org/2020/11/17/935934885/senate-blocks-president-trumps-controversial-nominee-to-the-federal-reserve-boar [23:35] -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.npr.org | Senate Blocks President Trump's Controversial Nominee To The Federal Reserve Board : NPR [23:36] CrystalMath and that's crappy, Judy Shelton is a wonderful candidate [23:37] CrystalMath she supports the gold standard [23:37] CrystalMath as do i [23:41] DaemonFC[m] The US could sell all the gold in Fort Knox and not pay off 1% of the debt with it. [23:42] DaemonFC[m] Trump piled on more to the debt than every president from George Washington to Barack Obama, and it only took him 1 term. [23:42] DaemonFC[m] Creditors are openly concerned about the US falling into sovereign default because of Trump. [23:42] DaemonFC[m] So they may not lend soon anyway. [23:43] DaemonFC[m] The last thing we need is another crank who will be around for 14 years after Trump is gone. [23:43] *inky (inky@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/norayr) has joined #techrights [23:45] DaemonFC[m] After the recess, Senator Elect Mark Kelly (D-AZ) will take his seat. [23:45] DaemonFC[m] So he'll be seated in December, not January. [23:45] CrystalMath fiat currency is crap [23:46] CrystalMath the gold standard is absolutely needed [23:46] DaemonFC[m] So the Republicans will be down one seat very soon. [23:46] DaemonFC[m] There isn't enough gold in the entire world to represent the American economy. [23:46] DaemonFC[m] Much less the global economy [23:46] CrystalMath maybe because a lot of that economy is a lie [23:46] DaemonFC[m] Nixon suspended Bretton Woods because it was killing us. [23:47] DaemonFC[m] Other countries were demanding our gold reserves and it would have all been gone before the 1970s were out if he hadn't stopped them. [23:47] DaemonFC[m] It was also increasingly becoming outdated anyway. [23:48] *chomwitt has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) [23:48] DaemonFC[m] We're not living in some kind of medieval barter economy. [23:49] DaemonFC[m] The gold standard was mostly over long before the Nixon Shock. [23:49] DaemonFC[m] FDR realized it had to stop. [23:49] DaemonFC[m] FDR was popular enough that he would have kept winning elections as long as he lived. [23:50] DaemonFC[m] Trump didn't have a majority of the popular vote the first time and lost both the popular and electoral vote this time around. [23:50] CrystalMath FDR was crap [23:50] DaemonFC[m] He's Republican Carter at this point. [23:50] DaemonFC[m] Except he's not even a generally decent guy. [23:50] DaemonFC[m] They'll get over Trump fast. [23:51] MinceR RepliCarter? [23:51] DaemonFC[m] They say they won't, but in 2024 they won't even want to talk about him anymore. [23:54] CrystalMath then you won't see me talking about republicans, either [23:54] CrystalMath i never cared for fascist Mitt Romney, nor Bush the butcher [23:54] CrystalMath if there's nobody like Trump there's no hope for the US [23:55] CrystalMath oh, and i forgot McCain the criminally insane (and now deceased) [23:56] *inky has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) gemini://gemini.techrights.org/tr_text_version/irc-log-techrights-171120.txt

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