●● IRC: #techrights @ FreeNode: Saturday, November 14, 2020 ●●

● Nov 14
[00:00]	schestowitz	Ariadne: lots of articles about EPO coming this weekend
[00:00]	CrystalMath	Ariadne: moving to NL is like losing a whole foot of height, relatively :P
[00:00]	CrystalMath	Ariadne: because everyone's taller there :P
[00:00]	Ariadne	CrystalMath: how so?
[00:00]	schestowitz	at least I hope I clarified to mjg59 why it's unfair, VERY unfair, to paint US, collectively, as some sort of "Rape" something
[00:00]	Ariadne	oh i see
[00:01]	schestowitz	we exposed rapists
[00:01]	schestowitz	we exposed child abusers
[00:01]	Ariadne	well, good, i rather be smol
[00:01]	schestowitz	afaik, nobody among us ever did wrong
[00:01]	schestowitz	and I reported a person to the TSA
[00:01]	CrystalMath	Ariadne: the average height in the netherlands is the highest in the world
[00:01]	schestowitz	TSA never even got back to me
[00:01]	Ariadne	why would you report a person to TSA
[00:01]	schestowitz	they  seem happy enough to keep their perverts salaried
[00:01]	Ariadne	o
[00:01]	Ariadne	ok
[00:01]	mjg59	schestowitz: You claimed that Jake was fired from Tor because of rumours and gossip
[00:02]	mjg59	schestowitz: Do you accept that that was inaccurate?
[00:02]	schestowitz	is that a quote?
[00:02]	schestowitz	quote me
[00:02]	schestowitz	direct quote
[00:02]	schestowitz	not paraphrasing some imaginary thing
[00:02]	Ariadne	you said daniel pocock was run out of debian due to rumours and gossip
[00:02]	mjg59	Only years ago something similar happened to Jacob Appelbaum, who would soon be expelled also from Tor,
[00:02]	Ariadne	and that similar happened to applebaum
[00:02]	Ariadne	^
[00:02]	Ariadne	:)
[00:02]	schestowitz	I will say yes or no and with context
[00:03]	schestowitz	Ariadne: that's not a quote
[00:03]	CrystalMath	perhaps "unproven accusations" would be better
[00:03]	schestowitz	quote the whole sentence
[00:03]	CrystalMath	that is, direct claims without physical evidence or third party witnesses
[00:03]	schestowitz	I read my posts carefully once
[00:03]	schestowitz	first when I type
[00:03]	schestowitz	then when I check again for accuracy
[00:03]	CrystalMath	which is of course softer than saying "rumors and hearsay", but it's more accurate
[00:03]	schestowitz	so my guess it, I would defend what I wrote _as I wrote it_
[00:04]	schestowitz	in context, also
[00:04]	mjg59	I can't quote an entire paragraph, it'll exceed the line length
[00:04]	schestowitz	mjg59: you cannot write my statements for me
[00:04]	Ariadne	just screenshot it :D
[00:04]	schestowitz	and then ask me to say yes
[00:04]	CrystalMath	Ariadne: or pastebin
[00:05]	Ariadne	6 of 1, half dozen of the other
[00:05]	Ariadne	i also think schestowitz has been unfair in criticizing mjg59 for writing shim
[00:05]	mjg59	schestowitz: https://pastebin.com/hk6XYaz5
[00:05]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-On another occasion we saw an eager developer, at one point a technical student, - Pastebin.com
[00:05]	schestowitz	mjg59: on a personal, sincere note, I hope you realise why it is important
[00:05]	CrystalMath	i criticize mjg59 for writing against freedom 0
[00:05]	Ariadne	shim allows linux to be booted on machines where secure boot is not disableable
[00:05]	schestowitz	(we don't need this circus doing about "rape apologist"-shaming)
[00:06]	mjg59	Ariadne: Eh not really
[00:06]	schestowitz	and you have a phd, you should know better I'm not your enemy on human rights issues
[00:06]	Ariadne	schestowitz: theres plenty of people who have phds who are quite awful really
[00:06]	mjg59	Ariadne: It's not usable on ARM and I haven't found any x86 where it's actually impossible to disable
[00:07]	schestowitz	"nfosec twitter"
[00:07]	schestowitz	"rumours and gossip were'"
[00:07]	mjg59	Ariadne: The goal was to ensure it was as easy as possible to continue using Linux, and also to provide a consistent way for users to choose to use their own keys
[00:07]	Ariadne	mjg59: i have a chuwi minipc from china, where it s impossible because the bios is in chinese ;)
[00:07]	schestowitz	That refers to Pocock I think
[00:07]	schestowitz	Ariadne: you did biology, right?
[00:07]		*inky has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[00:07]	mjg59	schestowitz: So what does the word "similar" refer to?
[00:07]	schestowitz	I did medical biopyhsics
[00:07]	CrystalMath	"Only years ago something similar happened to Jacob Appelbaum, who would soon be expelled also from Tor," hmm, it it stating here that the case is similar, not the same
[00:07]	Ariadne	if i knew chinese, i may be able to disable it
[00:07]	schestowitz	I had applied in cambridge uni also
[00:07]	Ariadne	but i do not know chinese :P
[00:08]	schestowitz	similar does not mean identical
[00:08]	schestowitz	and to conflate the two is false equivalence
[00:08]	CrystalMath	schestowitz: yes that's my point
[00:08]	schestowitz	Trump was removed from Office
[00:08]	schestowitz	Matt was remove from X
[00:08]	schestowitz	Trump has something similar done to him
[00:09]	schestowitz	does not mean mjg59 is Trump
[00:09]	schestowitz	I can compare Obama to Trump
[00:09]	schestowitz	without implying they're equally bad
[00:09]	schestowitz	So  maybe this boils down to a misunderstanding
[00:09]	Ariadne	schestowitz: no.  neuroscience
[00:09]	CrystalMath	you didn't really say that Appelbaum was removed on rumors and hearsay, just that the situation is somewhat similar (there was no physical evidence of 3rd party witnesses for Appelbaum for example)
[00:09]	schestowitz	I meant, mjg59
[00:09]	schestowitz	biology iirc
[00:09]	mjg59	Yes, genetics
[00:10]	schestowitz	I highlighted wrong person
[00:10]	schestowitz	my bad
[00:10]	CrystalMath	*or 3rd party
[00:10]	schestowitz	mjg59: be careful not to be painted eugenicist :-)
[00:10]	schestowitz	the base45 is growing
[00:10]	schestowitz	70 million-adult-strong
[00:10]	Ariadne	CrystalMath: i'm mostly looking forward to being able to take eurostar to london and visit the jellycat stuffed animal company store :)
[00:10]	mjg59	I seem to have managed to avoid that so far, thanks
[00:10]	schestowitz	https://truthout.org/articles/obama-memoir-calls-trumps-birtherism-lies-elixir-for-american-racial-anxiety/
[00:10]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-truthout.org | Obama Memoir Calls Trumps Birtherism Lies "Elixir" for American Racial Anxiety
[00:10]	schestowitz	obama bingo'ed it
[00:11]	CrystalMath	Ariadne: btw, "of" is dutch for "or"
[00:11]	schestowitz	BTW
[00:11]	schestowitz	pocock wrote to me about equivalences
[00:12]	schestowitz	like being compared to manning
[00:12]	schestowitz	or assange
[00:12]	schestowitz	not my article
[00:12]	schestowitz	figosdev's
[00:12]	schestowitz	he thought the comparison (not mine) was unhelpful
[00:12]	Ariadne	i mean, i do think pocock is being slandered by debian and fsfe personnel
[00:12]	schestowitz	he sees himself as holding vastly higher standards
[00:12]	Ariadne	fedora concluded the same incidentally
[00:12]	schestowitz	as he broke no contractual obligation, like to the US military
[00:13]	Ariadne	unfortunately due to debian and fsfe doing that, he assumes bad faith with other groups when there are technical problems now
[00:13]	schestowitz	Ariadne: they still treat him badly
[00:13]	Ariadne	so, be careful :)
[00:13]	schestowitz	 "First of all, my email nominating myself on the Fedora Council list was delayed for approximately 14 hours." #fedora #ibm #redhat #censorship https://danielpocock.com/withdrawing-fedora-council-nomination-2020/
[00:13]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-danielpocock.com | Withdrawing my nomination for Fedora Council
[00:13]	Ariadne	that was due to a technical fault
[00:13]	schestowitz	he also did something to show they didn't apply the CoC fairly
[00:14]	schestowitz	Ariadne: it always is :-)
[00:14]	schestowitz	in libreplanet mailing lists his  message never came through
[00:14]	schestowitz	he was defending RMS
[00:14]	schestowitz	and in GSOC he proved mailing list censorship
[00:14]	schestowitz	having been volunteering for the program for like half a decade
[00:14]	schestowitz	more recently: http://techrights.org/2020/11/03/the-harassment-claims-in-full/
[00:15]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Outreachy as Hush Money (Bribe) From Monopolies | Techrights
[00:15]		*Ariadne shrugs
[00:15]	schestowitz	seems like he was a good steward for his interns http://techrights.org/2020/11/03/the-harassment-claims-in-full/
[00:15]	Ariadne	i don't really care about debian and fsfe politics
[00:15]	mjg59	schestowitz: So you mention two cases and say that they're similar. You say that the first case is something you disliked. Is your feeling about the second case similar?
[00:15]	schestowitz	and he faces flak for not getting with the (GSOC) programme
[00:15]	schestowitz	*on with
[00:16]	XRevan86	Such a plentiful discussion. Is it even possible to lie about wearing a condom to the partner?
[00:16]	schestowitz	mjg59: we're done explaining that
[00:16]	schestowitz	you now look for a twist to retroactive justify your shitposting ;-)
[00:16]	Ariadne	actually i am curious about that question
[00:16]	Ariadne	:)
[00:16]	schestowitz	XRevan86: not if you exposed war crimes
[00:16]	mjg59	schestowitz: No, I'm trying to understand what you meant by the word "similar"
[00:17]	schestowitz	there are some parables
[00:17]	schestowitz	in the senses other than the nature of allegations
[00:17]	mjg59	schestowitz: My reading of that was that you were criticising Debian's reaction to the accusations. Was my reading wrong?
[00:17]	schestowitz	Debian no
[00:17]	schestowitz	Zini
[00:17]	schestowitz	just Zini
[00:17]	schestowitz	acting for Debian as DAM
[00:18]	schestowitz	See Enrico's email
[00:18]	schestowitz	and the followup
[00:18]	schestowitz	which itself was not happy with what had been said
[00:18]	schestowitz	Enrico fcked up big time
[00:18]	schestowitz	and unwittingly put the Debian stamp on a paragraph read by millions in mainstream press (still being read each day)
[00:19]	schestowitz	if I did that, I'd resign
[00:19]	mjg59	schestowitz: Where did he fuck up?
[00:19]	schestowitz	see the pocock article
[00:20]	schestowitz	it's very clear and easy to understand
[00:20]	schestowitz	it also received much supportive feedback online
[00:20]	schestowitz	in lots of sites
[00:21]	mjg59	Zini does not claim that the people he named had been assaulted by Jake
[00:21]	schestowitz	see what Zini wrote
[00:21]	mjg59	Yes
[00:22]	mjg59	I have
[00:22]	schestowitz	and what was actually said to Zini
[00:22]	schestowitz	not the same
[00:22]	mjg59	?
[00:22]	schestowitz	maybe Italian-speaking people aren't strong on english
[00:22]	mjg59	Zini names three people and describes them as having provided "first-person stories"
[00:22]	schestowitz	and that can thus be blamed of, 'oops really sorry...lol"
[00:22]	mjg59	He does not claim that they were victims of Jake
[00:22]	schestowitz	no, read again
[00:23]	schestowitz	read the pocock piece
[00:23]	mjg59	I have
[00:23]	schestowitz	"first-person stories"
[00:23]	schestowitz	doesn't mean what you want it to mean
[00:23]	mjg59	What does it mean?
[00:23]	schestowitz	it's an indirection
[00:23]	schestowitz	ZIni never received "first-person stories"
[00:23]	schestowitz	not even one
[00:24]	mjg59	Three people describe communications they have had
[00:24]	schestowitz	anyway, I want to post daily links
[00:24]	mjg59	That's a first person account of those communications
[00:24]	schestowitz	I start work in 40 mins
[00:24]	schestowitz	read again
[00:25]	schestowitz	you're smart enough, mjg59
[00:25]	schestowitz	I know you have the first language advantage as well
[00:25]	schestowitz	mother's tongue (Ireland)
[00:25]	schestowitz	bbl
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[00:35]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Servers and Linux Foundation Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144354 [https://pleroma.site/objects/2080a2da-ba8f-4fb7-bbe1-2081770201f8]
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[00:40]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Links 13/11/2020: Mageia 8 Coming Soon, Endian 3.3.2 Released http://techrights.org/2020/11/13/mageia-8-coming-soon/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/51d6eac6-abc8-479d-bee5-9eb885d8cafd]
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[00:54]	oiaohm	schestowitz: lot of these case first party stories and third party observers are not ideal either.   Humans have bad habit of remembering stuff in ways that suits them.   Logs and emails.... as in solid evidence of exactly what was said and done is what you are after.
[00:55]	schestowitz	like Assange accusers' SMS
[00:55]	schestowitz	I can seek the references and the evidence
[00:56]	schestowitz	it's in the Assange statement (to the Swede who visited him in the Embassy interview) as well
[00:56]	schestowitz	Wikileaks published the thing
[00:56]	oiaohm	Exactly solid eveidence.
[00:56]	oiaohm	If that exist that beats all the stories stuff.
[00:57]	schestowitz	maybe it was this one https://wikileaks.org/IMG/html/Affidavit_of_Julian_Assange.html
[00:57]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wikileaks.org |
[00:57]	schestowitz	not sure if that's the one
[00:57]	oiaohm	Even with stories you need to fine at least enough evidence that the time line in the story is possible.
[00:57]	schestowitz	no, wait, that's a different one
[00:58]	schestowitz	media spammed and googlebombed it to death
[00:58]	schestowitz	BBC hit pieces and stuff
[00:58]	schestowitz	drowning out the signal
[00:59]	schestowitz	it's about this
[00:59]	schestowitz	https://www.voanews.com/europe/sweden-gets-written-report-assange-interview-london
[00:59]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.voanews.com | Sweden Gets Written Report From Assange Interview in London | Voice of America - English
[00:59]	schestowitz	but wikileaks published the interview
● Nov 14
[01:00]	schestowitz	I cannot find it, using google (schmidt and all, not sure they'd rank wikileaks.org highly)
[01:02]	oiaohm	https://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/18/world/julian-assange-fast-facts/index.html   This has the timeline here.   Yes it shows that the USA delayed making action against Assange in courts until the statue of limitations was about to run out.
[01:02]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-edition.cnn.com | Julian Assange Fast Facts - CNN
[01:03]	oiaohm	Also that the USA had been planning to prosecute Assange from 2010.
[01:03]	oiaohm	New president its possible case against him will go away again.
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[01:08]	tessier	Once again I got highlighted and it's scrolled off. I need to increase my buffer size in irssi.
[01:08]	Ariadne	blah blah blah
[01:08]	schestowitz	it was something about varnish I think
[01:09]	schestowitz	like how we used to handle ddos
[01:09]	tessier	ok
[01:09]	schestowitz	tessier: as the server is being moved again
[01:09]	tessier	I am working on containerizing all of my infrastructure.
[01:09]	tessier	Something I should have done years ago.
[01:10]	schestowitz	you helped us so much and we never had security incidents
[01:10]	schestowitz	only "SLAPP incidents"
[01:10]	schestowitz	(all failed)
[01:10]	tessier	heh
[01:10]	schestowitz	tuxmachines now averaging at 11 hits/sec
[01:12]	tessier	Is that good? An increase?
[01:12]	tessier	I just bought my son a Raspberry Pi 400. It's great.
[01:13]	schestowitz	yesterday's irc log was like 700k https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmTVK9B2YvX97kQJqZEpTKfC2nhjXd4cwa59eQ2Xbazok2
[01:13]	Ariadne	yeah the server is being moved due to the previous DC owner being ejected out of a moving car
[01:13]	schestowitz	tessier: someone bought me raspi 4
[01:14]	schestowitz	same thing, sans keyboard, slightly different internal structure
[01:14]	schestowitz	it's where the IPFS stuff is now served from, one node od many
[01:14]	schestowitz	*of
[01:15]	schestowitz	ipfs stats bw
[01:15]	schestowitz	Bandwidth
[01:15]	schestowitz	TotalIn: 9.5 GB
[01:15]	schestowitz	TotalOut: 3.7 GB
[01:15]	schestowitz	almost 10gb now
[01:15]	schestowitz	since going public last Saturday
[01:16]	tessier	I want to build an rpi 4 ceph cluster. I miss playing with ceph.
[01:16]	schestowitz	yesterday's IRC log:  https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmQ6YBEztdbiojpMUCmbvnC5LyEa8vBHDS1QeUh83yhXoC
[01:16]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipfs.io | IRC: #techrights @ FreeNode: Friday, November 13, 2020
[01:47]	schestowitz	oiaohm: Re: Lying is beneath you, Oiaohm
[01:47]	schestowitz	> As if PyPy doesn't exist.
[01:47]	schestowitz	>
[01:47]	schestowitz	> oiaohm
[01:47]	schestowitz	> vZS1: do remember python 2 is open source and *no one was willing to
[01:47]	schestowitz	> put up the resources to keep it maintained* once they saw the internal
[01:47]	schestowitz	> problems. <- *NOT TRUE!*
[01:47]	schestowitz	(from python dev)
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● Nov 14
[02:13]	Ariadne	somebody forked python2, so clearly that is not true
[02:14]	Ariadne	i think very few people care about py2 though
[02:15]	Ariadne	i wonder why libffi is trying to include mips64n32 crap :/
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● Nov 14
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[03:27]	DaemonFC[m]	I'm tempted to get a new laptop but I probably won't.
[03:28]	DaemonFC[m]	4 years and single thread performance is still only up about 25%.
[03:37]	oiaohm	schestowitz: what I said on python 2 is true.    one is fully compatible with Python 2.7; << is a statement from PyPy turns out they don't support all legacy python 2 features.  https://doc.pypy.org/en/latest/cpython_differences.html
[03:37]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-doc.pypy.org | Differences between PyPy and CPython PyPy documentation
[03:38]	oiaohm	schestowitz: basically PyPy cuts of a lot of features before Python 2.4.  None of the forks are wanting to maintain that.   Those areas are problematic.
[03:38]	oiaohm	python 2 by their stated objective had to maintain that legacy support.
[03:39]	oiaohm	The reality here python 2 got to a point where breaking total backwards compadiblity had to happen.
[03:40]	oiaohm	Either you go the python 3 route and take this as chance to fix up lots or you go the pypy route and drop out old features hopefully not effecting any current applications.
[03:41]	oiaohm	Old badly design features that is.
[03:41]	oiaohm	either way you don't in fact get python 2.
[03:44]	oiaohm	Even the fork Tauthon of python 2 has stripped away particular legacy features.
[03:45]	oiaohm	The truth is no one at all is willing to maintain python 2 the way it was.
[03:45]	oiaohm	That is a good thing.
● Nov 14
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● Nov 14
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● Nov 14
[06:11]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Top 5 Linux Snaps of 2020: Arch, CentOS, Debian, Fedora, Manjaro, and Ubuntu http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144346#comment-27139 [https://pleroma.site/objects/044199c3-0af6-49f2-b13b-53da1e3ab29e]
[06:26]	vZS1	This cretin mjg59 is polluting my IRC with the same bloody messages. Like some sort of drone. Another one to ignore
[06:27]	schestowitz	https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmQ6YBEztdbiojpMUCmbvnC5LyEa8vBHDS1QeUh83yhXoC
[06:27]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipfs.io | IRC: #techrights @ FreeNode: Friday, November 13, 2020
[06:30]	vZS1	I'll check if the cron job worked when I log on to my desktop
[06:30]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Todays #HowTos | #UNIX http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144359 [https://pleroma.site/objects/c222ad4d-91cc-499f-bfd4-80b7c204aae4]
[06:31]	schestowitz	"Almost nine years ago, I wrote an article titled Richard Stallman was right all along, still one of the most popular, if not the most popular, articles ever posted on OSNews." https://www.osnews.com/story/132577/macs-are-a-privacy-nightmare/
[06:31]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Macs are a privacy nightmare OSnews
[06:32]	schestowitz	vZS1: I think I'm ready to tun those jobs unsupervised
[06:32]	schestowitz	without sanity check by human (hi)
[06:32]	vZS1	Morning
[06:33]	vZS1	I've updated the scripts, don't forget
[06:34]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Macs are a privacy nightmare http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144338#comment-27140 [https://pleroma.site/objects/b71a56bd-7040-4352-b889-cb1e3bc97a66]
[06:35]	vZS1	The next big issue is going to be tweaking for scale. Pis can't handle loading everything into RAM. It works for now because the index is small
[06:36]	vZS1	But we'll cross that bridge when we get to it
[06:38]	vZS1	I'm going to convert all the printf lines to logger lines. So there's an audit trail in the syslog
[06:38]	vZS1	Will make debugging cron cock-ups a lot easier
[06:40]	vZS1	By tomorrow, I should have the whole node automated with decent logging.
[06:40]	vZS1	I also promised chovy that I'd check out his project. So I need to do that this weekend.
[06:43]	vZS1	I'm going to also write a script to automatically configure the an IPFS node with a repo for handling the TR index. That way everything is reproducible when I have to install this again on another system.
[06:43]	vZS1	Should be done with this in a week or two.
[06:59]	schestowitz	today I will post lots of EPO things
[06:59]	schestowitz	Ariadne too says they're of interest, it's just that they take much effort to prepare
● Nov 14
[07:00]	schestowitz	I see Guido Van/van Icaza gets or had received loads of flak
[07:00]	schestowitz	some from people who read techrights
[07:01]	schestowitz	I think it has woken up more people to the thread posed by entryism
[07:01]	schestowitz	paying loads of money for this retired man while firing 5000 workers or more
[07:01]	schestowitz	and even firing Azure staff
[07:01]	schestowitz	IIS is collapsing
[07:01]	schestowitz	but I'm not sure what else to say about it which we haven't said before, so will focus on EPO today
[07:02]	schestowitz	vZS1: should we bother generating objects for older days/months/years
[07:02]	schestowitz	that would needlessly grow the index, I think
[07:03]	vZS1	Up to you
[07:03]	vZS1	Things seem fine how they are now
[07:06]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Jonathan Riddell: Linux App Summit 2020 http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144333#comment-27141 [https://pleroma.site/objects/3eb41d87-713f-4117-bb15-bb2a71910b8f]
[07:08]	schestowitz	yeah
[07:08]	schestowitz	I think IPFS doesn't need to be accommodated retroactively for 14 years' worth of things... UNLESS..
[07:08]	schestowitz	[correct me if I am wrong]
[07:08]	schestowitz	IPFS has discoverability... OR
[07:08]	schestowitz	will have that
[07:08]	schestowitz	like a search engine for obkects
[07:09]	schestowitz	*objects
[07:12]	schestowitz	https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2020/11/13/there-is-always-a-curlopt-for-it/
[07:12]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-there is always a CURLOPT for it | daniel.haxx.se
[07:15]	vZS1	Search engines operate on metadata
[07:16]	vZS1	So the more metadata you have for each CID in your index, the easier it will be to find things
[07:16]	schestowitz	but here's the the thing
[07:16]	schestowitz	let me say this
[07:16]	schestowitz	assuming ipfs can interoperate
[07:17]	schestowitz	I see guix is listed as partner or whatever
[07:17]	schestowitz	not gnunet
[07:17]	schestowitz	if people want "not Web" results
[07:17]	schestowitz	or text onlt
[07:17]	schestowitz	or only decentralised
[07:17]	schestowitz	isn't there some search engine, however crude, to help them mine and dig up stuff from ipfs?
[07:17]	schestowitz	we'd have an advantage if we build up indices for those
[07:18]	schestowitz	otherwise not really..
[07:18]	schestowitz	BTW
[07:18]	schestowitz	Twitter is 'shutting down'
[07:18]	schestowitz	for those who don't access it "the Twitter way"
[07:19]	schestowitz	"This is the legacy version of twitter.com. We will  be shutting it down on 15 December 2020. Please switch to a supported browser or device. You can see a list  of supported browsers in our Help Center."
[07:19]	schestowitz	That's a shame, I would stop accessing it altogether if it means what I think it means
[07:19]	schestowitz	Reddit became bloated and is becoming app-only
[07:19]	schestowitz	they will kill of the "old reddit" mode
[07:19]	schestowitz	and kill themselves in the process
[07:21]	vZS1	IPFS is hash based. Metadata isn't attached to objects. It's separation of concerns. That's why it's important to develop indices which are easy to use in a search engine like Lucene
[07:22]	schestowitz	what is such an index?
[07:22]	schestowitz	Does Lucene access these?
[07:22]	schestowitz	or just in theory?
[07:22]	vZS1	In theory
[07:22]	schestowitz	and, if so, where is a front end?
[07:23]	vZS1	People have to make their own
[07:23]	schestowitz	vZS1: tell ipfs devs there might be an interest in searching
[07:23]	schestowitz	for those who want to get off the web
[07:23]	vZS1	IPFS is just a filesystem
[07:23]	vZS1	Index sharing is not really a concern for them
[07:23]	schestowitz	people send me email about it
[07:23]	schestowitz	they want more of ipfs
[07:23]	schestowitz	but don't know how/where to find it
[07:24]	schestowitz	ipfs is like www in that regard
[07:24]	vZS1	"it"?
[07:24]	schestowitz	sites are like indixes
[07:24]	schestowitz	with fancy hypermark to navigate
[07:24]	schestowitz	and it all boils down to servers with filesystems
[07:24]	schestowitz	they're presented and accessed by sgml and search engines that spider those
[07:25]	schestowitz	heck, remember mozdev?
[07:25]	vZS1	I like IPFS how it is now it's
[07:25]	vZS1	Simple
[07:25]	schestowitz	or even web directories?
[07:25]	schestowitz	at least make ipfs web directories
[07:25]	vZS1	And abstract
[07:26]	schestowitz	and if not directories, then large high-level indices
[07:26]	schestowitz	arrange by topic, domain etc.
[07:26]	schestowitz	or make "news" sites for ipfs
[07:26]	schestowitz	split into sections
[07:26]	schestowitz	that would massively help adoption
[07:26]	vZS1	That's up to the community
[07:26]	schestowitz	people want to be included in those
[07:26]	vZS1	Just like how index sites like PirateBay
[07:26]	vZS1	Exist
[07:27]	schestowitz	right
[07:27]	schestowitz	what's the equiv for ipfs?
[07:27]	schestowitz	or tpb?
[07:27]	schestowitz	*of tpb
[07:27]	vZS1	Doesn't exist
[07:27]	schestowitz	let's make one
[07:27]	schestowitz	I have the time
[07:28]	schestowitz	we can host one in techrights, too
[07:28]	schestowitz	and make it available as html, text file, etc.
[07:28]	schestowitz	fetchable over several protocol
[07:28]	schestowitz	do you have a set of indices for different sites
[07:29]	schestowitz	can you extract page title for each fast...?
[07:29]	schestowitz	https://www.searchenginejournal.com/web-directories-list/287799/
[07:29]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.searchenginejournal.com | 21 Web Directories That Still Have Value
[07:30]	vZS1	Don't have the time for another project right now
[07:30]	vZS1	After I finish this IPFS automation I'm going to go off and resume another project of mine.
[07:31]	vZS1	I think what's more important is to share indices
[07:31]	vZS1	Instead of making a centralised site
[07:31]	schestowitz	no need for centralised
[07:31]	schestowitz	that would miss the point
[07:32]	vZS1	Yeah
[07:32]	schestowitz	but the indices themselves are distributed across
[07:32]	schestowitz	and synced among nodess
[07:32]	schestowitz	but classifying and sorting objects would help
[07:32]	schestowitz	like, "give me all objects from domain X that cover topic Y"
[07:33]	schestowitz	or, "give all multimedia files of music of genre Z"
[07:33]	vZS1	That's role really should be played by the metadata in indices
[07:33]		*davisr__ (davisr@gateway/vpn/protonvpn/davisr) has joined #techrights
[07:34]	schestowitz	 vZS1: but they're hard to find and search fast
[07:34]	schestowitz	web directories perished
[07:34]	schestowitz	because most people reckoned it's "faster to google it"
[07:35]	vZS1	It's important people learn to work with different indices from different publishers
[07:35]	vZS1	Trying to do a Google is a great way for a monopoly to form
[07:35]	vZS1	That's why it's important publishers make their own index easily accessible
[07:36]		*davisr_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[07:36]	vZS1	Have an RSS feed dedicated to your IPFS index
[07:36]	schestowitz	I know what you mean
[07:36]	schestowitz	not concern-trolling here btw
[07:37]	schestowitz	I want ipfs to grow
[07:37]	vZS1	Maybe use JSON to make it easier to include various metadata
[07:37]	schestowitz	and people ask me about it
[07:37]	schestowitz	they want MOAR of it
[07:37]	schestowitz	so wait...
[07:37]	schestowitz	you say,
[07:37]	schestowitz	people subscribe to indices
[07:37]	schestowitz	that they like
[07:37]	vZS1	Yeah
[07:37]	schestowitz	like they do rss/xml?
[07:37]	schestowitz	I see
[07:38]	vZS1	Yep
[07:38]	schestowitz	what if I want to search broadly on topics?
[07:38]	vZS1	I already said this a while ago
[07:38]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Apple Users Got Owned http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144338#comment-27142 [https://pleroma.site/objects/2f7ac1be-a3b2-4645-af4c-f1ce8b14eb10]
[07:38]	vZS1	That's why they ask people
[07:38]	schestowitz	kind of like google news
[07:38]	schestowitz	is it manually curated then?
[07:38]	vZS1	People can aggregate RSS
[07:38]	vZS1	Of various indices
[07:38]	schestowitz	can someone, say, automate creating index for many ipfs nodes with linux news?
[07:39]	vZS1	This prevents a centralised monopoly like Google emerging
[07:39]	vZS1	I'm not going to contribute to any work that makes IPFS more centralised
[07:39]	schestowitz	not suggesting that
[07:40]	vZS1	I know but I'm just saying
[07:40]	schestowitz	searching indices to make new collections with some descriptions is not a monopoly
[07:40]	schestowitz	it's another index, or custom-made one/s
[07:40]	vZS1	PirateBay is a monopoly, if you think about it
[07:40]	vZS1	It's a centralised index
[07:41]	schestowitz	the index itself is
[07:41]	schestowitz	the inevitable
[07:41]	vZS1	But building aggregation of RSS feeds is much better
[07:41]	schestowitz	let me think...
[07:41]	schestowitz	say we had one ipfs object for every individual article
[07:42]	schestowitz	with summary and title noted for each cid
[07:42]	schestowitz	and then we aggregated many indices like these
[07:42]	schestowitz	with meta for dates
[07:42]	schestowitz	you have a massive index of objects, which can be sorted on the fly
[07:42]	schestowitz	then slices based on keywords
[07:43]	schestowitz	would that be a monopoly risk?
[07:43]	schestowitz	you could even make cron jobs
[07:43]	schestowitz	to make some custom-made indices periodically
[07:43]	schestowitz	e.g. "Linux" on IPFS
[07:43]	vZS1	Do it like this instead:
[07:44]	schestowitz	and then output that to some static daily ipfs object
[07:44]	schestowitz	BTW (side question) what gnu/linux sites other than us have ipfs indices at this moment?
[07:44]	schestowitz	I'd love to have their indices to play on/hack on
[07:45]	schestowitz	could even make a daily post like "around the IPFS, with titled and CIDs of interest to the readers"
[07:45]	schestowitz	*titles
[07:48]	schestowitz	LOL.  https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/735211/signin-screen-has-only-other-user-and-i-cannot-sign-in/ a source of endless amusement.
[07:48]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights- ( status 503 @ https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/735211/signin-screen-has-only-other-user-and-i-cannot-sign-in/ )
[07:48]	vZS1	Make sure each publisher religiously maintains an RSS feed for their own index. They can make various indices of CID with metadata in those indices of CIDs. Next, people just subscribe to the feeds they like. Now you can ask friends for their RSS links and aggregate feeds. What I'm trying to say, in conclusion, is to not aggregate indices but aggregate RSS feeds of indices instead. That way people know where to look for objects on certain top
[07:49]	vZS1	A search engine like Google for raw indices is a one-way route to monopoly
[07:49]	vZS1	We need to prevent that from happening
[07:49]	vZS1	Because then that engine would control what's popular
[07:50]	vZS1	RSS would mean people have full control over what they follow
[07:51]	vZS1	And
[07:51]	vZS1	Here's the important thing. People use something like Lucene or Elasticsearch on indices they are subscribed to.
[07:52]	vZS1	Because of the metadata in the indices of CID for each publisher
[07:52]	schestowitz	the scope would be limited
[07:52]	schestowitz	to what they can physically store and manually select
[07:52]	schestowitz	for that matter
[07:52]	schestowitz	since centralisation is mentioned
[07:52]	vZS1	That's the job of subscribing to the right RSS feeds
[07:53]	schestowitz	how do I access ipfs objects without accessing ipfs.io?
[07:53]	schestowitz	is there a desktop client?
[07:53]	vZS1	Yes
[07:53]	vZS1	Several
[07:53]	schestowitz	in debian repos?
[07:53]	vZS1	I don't know about that
[07:53]	schestowitz	the firefox extension seems to lack that
[07:53]	schestowitz	I see no option to open up a given CID
[07:54]	schestowitz	ipfs.io seems like a potential privacy hazard if accessed through there
[07:54]	vZS1	Give me a minute I'll link
[07:54]	schestowitz	or over https
[07:55]	schestowitz	sometimes I check my objects just uploaded work
[07:55]	schestowitz	and I know (for now) no other way then entering them over httpd
[07:55]	schestowitz	*http/s
[07:56]	schestowitz	*than
[07:57]	vZS1	https://docs.ipfs.io/install/ipfs-desktop/
[07:57]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-docs.ipfs.io | IPFS Desktop | IPFS Docs
[07:57]	schestowitz	hmmm...shithub
[07:58]	schestowitz	even the page itself
[07:58]	schestowitz	wait, checking more
[07:58]	schestowitz	it runs a whole node
[07:58]	schestowitz	seems like an overkill
[07:59]	schestowitz	let's say someone just wants to easily open up objects
[07:59]	schestowitz	without becoming part of the sharing network
[07:59]	schestowitz	and without local store of objects
● Nov 14
[08:00]	schestowitz	"And either way, IPFS Desktop will automatically check for updates."
[08:00]	schestowitz	Snaps
[08:01]	schestowitz	automatic updates
[08:01]	vZS1	You should be able to turn off the daemon
[08:01]	schestowitz	doesn't sound like something I'd recommend people install tbh
[08:01]	schestowitz	need something simpler
[08:01]	schestowitz	like a downloader
[08:01]	schestowitz	from peers
[08:01]	schestowitz	without becoming a peer
[08:02]	schestowitz	like ipfs-wget [options] [CID]
[08:02]	schestowitz	or browser that takes CIDs as addresses
[08:02]	schestowitz	none of the backend stuff and panels
[08:02]	schestowitz	file association with programs can be done at OS level
[08:03]	schestowitz	can I put ip:/CID to fetch files from?
[08:03]	vZS1	Front ends are not something I've got the time to work on.
[08:03]	schestowitz	assuming they store only shards of data but enough to serve whole files if the files were originally constructed there..
[08:04]	schestowitz	to a lot of people installing such a thing would feel like "becoming part of the botnet"
[08:04]	schestowitz	rather than passive readers
[08:06]	vZS1	You can't pull without contributing
[08:06]	vZS1	That opens up the system to abuse
[08:06]	vZS1	Just how you can't torrent without uploading
[08:07]	schestowitz	I'm backing up our whole node by the way
[08:07]	schestowitz	to a machine that I back up externally, too
[08:07]	oiaohm	schestowitz:  https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/  darn.
[08:07]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-sneak.berlin | Jeffrey Paul: Your Computer Isn't Yours
[08:07]	oiaohm	Stuff apple is getting away with.
[08:07]	schestowitz	yeah, by dumbing people down
[08:07]	schestowitz	Microsoft will follow
[08:08]	schestowitz	vZS1: well, I can write code to scrape ipfs.io in theory
[08:08]	vZS1	Making it possible to download without uploading will kill any P2P network
[08:08]	schestowitz	so you give a CID and then it gets that off the public copy
[08:09]	vZS1	You need an HTTP gateway for that
[08:09]	schestowitz	so we know it >is< possible to get files without becoming part of the network
[08:09]	schestowitz	it's just actively discouraged
[08:09]	vZS1	Yes but that requires an HTTP gateway
[08:09]	vZS1	Which defeats the whole purpose of IPFS
[08:09]	schestowitz	depends
[08:09]	schestowitz	even if just 10% becoming part of the network
[08:09]	schestowitz	or it runs on externa devices like raspis
[08:10]	schestowitz	you can still get the thing going
[08:10]	vZS1	Either way. I only work on the CLI level. So I don't really have any plans to do anything more than that
[08:10]	schestowitz	I can write a bash tool
[08:10]	schestowitz	to help me scrape off ipfs.io
[08:10]	schestowitz	or make a GUI tool
[08:10]	schestowitz	it's only a few lines of code
[08:11]	schestowitz	for me to check if the objects work correctly
[08:11]	schestowitz	just saying
[08:11]	vZS1	You can just use the http gateway
[08:11]	schestowitz	need a browser for that
[08:11]	vZS1	with the idea you've just mentioned
[08:11]	schestowitz	overkill
[08:11]	vZS1	you can use wget
[08:11]	schestowitz	command line
[08:11]	vZS1	or curl
[08:13]	vZS1	So no need for a browser
[08:13]	schestowitz	a GUI is useful in some cases
[08:13]	schestowitz	the browser still needs more than CID entering
[08:13]	schestowitz	the context in the domain
[08:14]	vZS1	You can make a front end for your tool. Nothing stopping you from making a GUI for you
[08:14]	schestowitz	think like read-ipfs [CID]
[08:14]	vZS1	In fact, I encourage it
[08:14]	schestowitz	to then open it up
[08:14]	schestowitz	no domain needed
[08:14]	vZS1	IPFS tools should be made by users
[08:14]	vZS1	To use it how they wish
[08:14]	vZS1	That's why I am against adding anything else to IPFS itself
[08:14]	schestowitz	wget CID | nano
[08:14]	vZS1	It's abstract and should remain that way
[08:14]	vZS1	This is how it remains flexible
[08:15]	schestowitz	wget CID-of-index| head -n1 | wget ... | nano
[08:15]	vZS1	If they add any extra garbage, I will just fork it and get rid of the garbage
[08:15]	schestowitz	we need tools to simplify this
[08:15]	schestowitz	like youtube-dl URL
[08:15]	schestowitz	which generally works
[08:15]	schestowitz	make ipfs-dl
[08:15]	vZS1	yeah. A nice wrapper to use
[08:15]	schestowitz	for CID as sole argument
[08:16]	schestowitz	that would help
[08:16]	schestowitz	for those who don't want to learn too much
[08:16]	schestowitz	and it could randomly locate and choose which node to fetch from at the gateways
[08:16]	schestowitz	Then I can say things like
[08:16]	vZS1	You could just have a file with a list of gatewayss
[08:16]	schestowitz	OK, read techrights without connecting to the site
[08:17]	schestowitz	take CID we advertise, plug into this simple tool
[08:17]	schestowitz	or run this in the command line
[08:17]	schestowitz	./techrights-news date
[08:17]	vZS1	This would help people who don't have the bandwidth to use a node.
[08:17]	schestowitz	./techrights-news CID
[08:17]	vZS1	So there are some benefits
[08:17]	schestowitz	and it does its thing, connecting and getting the files
[08:17]	schestowitz	let's do this
[08:18]	oiaohm	schestowitz: https://github.com/ipfs/ipget  there is the ipget command.
[08:18]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-GitHub - ipfs/ipget: Retrieve files over IPFS and save them locally.
[08:18]	schestowitz	we can help more people access the network, first as read-only
[08:18]	schestowitz	later they might participaote
[08:18]	schestowitz	ipfs is daunting to new users
[08:18]	schestowitz	I got al confused by the FF plugin
[08:19]	vZS1	Go ahead. It's good that you're using IPFS in your own way. That's how this ecosystem should work.
[08:19]	schestowitz	right now people can curl http/techrights.org/txt | nano
[08:19]	schestowitz	but let's do ipfs command | nano
[08:19]	schestowitz	vZS1: maybe I will code something today
[08:20]	schestowitz	vZS1: is there an api to access a gateway at random
[08:20]	schestowitz	or search across known ones?
[08:20]	vZS1	I don't know
[08:20]	schestowitz	can also attempt one
[08:20]	schestowitz	and if that fails, try the next
[08:20]	schestowitz	what exists other than ipfs.io?
[08:20]	vZS1	No idea. I haven't checked
[08:21]	schestowitz	because it would be nice to have a list of domains as fallbacks
[08:21]	vZS1	All my work on IPFS has been via my own tools and code.
[08:21]	vZS1	So I'm the wrong person to ask for that kind of stuff
[08:21]	schestowitz	ok, makes sense
[08:22]	schestowitz	I don't want to write a tool that's wired to one single domain
[08:22]	schestowitz	rather than search across a few
[08:22]	schestowitz	or pick one at random to make centralisation harder
[08:23]	schestowitz	and surveillance harder, too
[08:23]	vZS1	Remember, HTTP, by default, is centralised
[08:23]	schestowitz	as that would be another www
[08:23]	vZS1	Nothing is going to replace running your own node
[08:23]	vZS1	That's the whole point of IPFS
[08:23]	vZS1	And I don't work outside that scope
[08:24]	schestowitz	there is risk associated with running a node
[08:24]	schestowitz	it can send outward illegal material
[08:24]	schestowitz	as happeend apparently to matt dehart
[08:24]	schestowitz	they arrested him
[08:24]	vZS1	I don't pin random material
[08:24]	schestowitz	calling him pedo
[08:24]		*rianne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
[08:24]		*liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[08:25]	vZS1	It's not like ipfs can pin things you don't want it to
[08:25]	oiaohm	There is also the problem that running a server of any form can be a breach of different ISP policies.
[08:25]		*rianne_ (~rianne@host81-154-173-112.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights
[08:25]	oiaohm	Its get complex attempting to be p2p and get to as many users as possible,
[08:25]		*liberty_box (~liberty@host81-154-173-112.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights
[08:25]	vZS1	So as much as I appreciate your sentiment of making it more accessible via HTTP. I think that harms IPFS
[08:26]	vZS1	Just how GitHub harms people who don't bother to learn Git
[08:26]	schestowitz	GitHub is different
[08:26]	schestowitz	it's one domain
[08:26]	schestowitz	secret code
[08:26]	schestowitz	DMCA
[08:26]	vZS1	The abstract principle is the same
[08:26]	schestowitz	ipfs could have a node set up here too, for http
[08:27]	schestowitz	ipfs.io itself is doing that
[08:27]	schestowitz	there's no 'master node'
[08:27]	vZS1	All my work is narrowly focused on making it easy to run your own node on low-powered devices.
[08:27]	schestowitz	unless... the sole gateway is just that one
[08:28]	vZS1	I don't intend to do anything else with IPFS after I'm done with that.
[08:29]	schestowitz	windows update is also p2
[08:29]	schestowitz	p2p
[08:29]	schestowitz	for us ipfs is good for:
[08:29]	schestowitz	1) bypassing browsers
[08:29]	schestowitz	2) bypassing single point of failure
[08:29]	schestowitz	making that more easily accessible would help
[08:30]	vZS1	Making people not run their own node hurts IPFS
[08:30]	vZS1	Because you take away potential peers
[08:30]	vZS1	The more peers, the less load on everyone
[08:30]	vZS1	So I am not going to contribute to any HTTP-based work
[08:30]	schestowitz	disributing around is a form of deterrence against SLAPP
[08:30]	schestowitz	as they know upfront they play whack a mole
[08:31]	schestowitz	zoobab mirrors EPO pages in GitHub before Microsoft took over
[08:31]	schestowitz	that happened with wikileaks in 2010
[08:31]	schestowitz	hundreds of known mirrors, so the US govt. could not just target AWS/Amazon to make cablegate go away
[08:32]	schestowitz	[08:30] <vZS1> Because you take away potential peers
[08:32]	schestowitz	not everyone can run a node
[08:32]	schestowitz	for several different reasons
[08:32]	schestowitz	in different places
[08:33]	schestowitz	I might take a risk by running my own
[08:33]	vZS1	I disagree
[08:33]	schestowitz	as my ISP can say I take up upstream b/w without having permit to
[08:33]	vZS1	People torrent on their laptop
[08:33]	vZS1	They can IPFS on their laptop too
[08:33]	vZS1	In any country
[08:33]	schestowitz	some ISPs discourage torrents/p2p
[08:33]	vZS1	on any ISP
[08:33]	vZS1	That's why traffic is encrypted
[08:34]	schestowitz	some pay per usage
[08:34]	vZS1	You can always rate-limit ports on your machine
[08:34]	schestowitz	and some want quicker access or one-time access
[08:34]	vZS1	There are several applications that allow you to do that
[08:34]	vZS1	Anyway
[08:34]	vZS1	I am not contributing to any HTTP-based work on IPFS. Apart from indices
[08:35]	schestowitz	would be good to have "open-when-site-is-offline" tool
[08:35]	schestowitz	which might even hard-code the CIDs into it
[08:35]	schestowitz	baked in, for people to read the site, without having to set up their own node
[08:35]	schestowitz	even if just temporarily
[08:35]	schestowitz	basically access techrights by peers
[08:35]	schestowitz	in case there's some incident
[08:35]	vZS1	You know, people can only pull an object that they want
[08:36]	vZS1	They don't need to pull the entire index
[08:36]	vZS1	Then they just turn off the daemon
[08:36]	schestowitz	they need to install new software for that
[08:36]	schestowitz	people are generally reluctant
[08:36]	schestowitz	esp. if it's something they don't know
[08:36]	schestowitz	and is developed on Microsoft servers
[08:36]	schestowitz	NSA PRISM and all
[08:37]	schestowitz	less risk for one-time access if they connect via some existing protocol with a trusted tool like gnu wget
[08:37]	schestowitz	which many distros have preinstalled
[08:37]	vZS1	You are overcomplicating things
[08:37]	vZS1	Right now there's one CLI tool
[08:37]	schestowitz	it's both pragmatic
[08:37]	vZS1	That doesn't take long to learn
[08:37]	schestowitz	and freedom-centric
[08:38]	schestowitz	accessing a page without installing extra software
[08:38]	schestowitz	from outside one's PPA
[08:38]	schestowitz	can one apt-get $$TOOL$$
[08:38]	schestowitz	then $$TOOL$$ CID?
[08:38]	schestowitz	for example to access some page?
[08:39]	schestowitz	without adding new PPA
[08:39]	schestowitz	or adding snapd
[08:39]	vZS1	Who said you need any of that?
[08:39]	vZS1	My setup works with plain binaries and no package manager
[08:39]	schestowitz	it needs to be done via repos
[08:40]	schestowitz	for most people
[08:40]	schestowitz	otherwise they don't know what they install
[08:40]	schestowitz	wget some binary | bash some binary is risky
[08:40]	schestowitz	to most people
[08:40]	schestowitz	it can do anything
[08:40]	schestowitz	even not by intention
[08:40]	vZS1	There are signatures for all these binaries
[08:40]	vZS1	GPG signatures
[08:40]	schestowitz	if the binary gets compromised somehow
[08:41]	vZS1	And people can build from source, if they wish.
[08:41]	schestowitz	vZS1: not playing devil's advocate here
[08:41]	vZS1	All the source is availablee
[08:41]	schestowitz	just stressing things that can help adoption, imho
[08:41]	schestowitz	and bring peers, in due course
[08:41]	schestowitz	because people ask me those things ;-)
[08:42]	schestowitz	I am going to post lots of EPO 'leaks' today
[08:42]	vZS1	And go ask Debian upstream why they don't have an IPFS binar
[08:42]	schestowitz	and it would be good to signal to EPO, "don't even try!"
[08:42]	vZS1	OpenBSD does
[08:42]	schestowitz	(to SLAPP us)
[08:42]	vZS1	IPFS binary package*
[08:42]	schestowitz	very good
[08:42]	schestowitz	it means they trust it
[08:43]	schestowitz	it also means it's easy to set up
[08:43]	vZS1	So what about our "universal distribution" Debian? Hmm
[08:43]	vZS1	Why no IPFS package?
[08:43]	schestowitz	I assume with one command, though I don't know how openbsd package management works
[08:43]	vZS1	Yeah. It's just one command
[08:43]	schestowitz	vZS1: you can speak to a DD and ask them/him/her to make one
[08:44]	schestowitz	so for openbsd peoople who read techrights things are easier
[08:44]	schestowitz	for others it's a few extra steps
[08:44]	schestowitz	also bypassing the distro as trust mechanism
[08:46]	vZS1	I don't have time to think about these things. Because engineering takes up all my time.
[08:46]	vZS1	FreeBSD also has a go-ipfs package
[08:47]	schestowitz	that's very good
[08:47]	schestowitz	if more distros package it, it would help a lot
[08:47]	schestowitz	just saying
[08:47]	schestowitz	then we'd ask readers to install it
[08:48]	schestowitz	(which is simple and seemingly credible (to them))
[08:48]	schestowitz	you'd have more nodes
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[08:50]	Ariadne	btw one of the main alpine-related companies just fired back at canonical's microk8s: https://www.mirantis.com/blog/congratulations-to-the-k0s-team-on-their-new-kubernetes-distribution/
[08:50]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.mirantis.com | Congratulations to the K0s team on their new Kubernetes distribution!
[08:50]	vZS1	Relying on packages is more of a security threat than downloading binaries and verifying their signatures.
[08:50]	vZS1	The trust chain is much smaller.
[08:51]	vZS1	So this is not about security
[08:51]	vZS1	It's about convenience
[08:51]	Ariadne	yes, it is fairly easy to slip things into a distro that shouldn't be there
[08:51]	vZS1	That's why I am not using a package manager in my work. To keep things more secure.
[08:51]	vZS1	If people don't want to use it, that's up to them.
[08:51]	Ariadne	sponsors and release managers don't have time to check every detail of every package
[08:52]	Ariadne	that there has not been a major alpine or debian or fedora package with backdoor is largely because nobody has tried it
[08:52]	Ariadne	they would likely succeed
[08:54]	vZS1	Alpine and Arch already have go-ipfs packages anyway
[08:54]	vZS1	So I don't see what's preventing Debian and its derivatives
[08:54]	vZS1	(this is not about security but convenience)
[08:55]	schestowitz	good point
[08:55]	Ariadne	i don't even know what alpine has anymore, it has gotten that big
[08:55]	Ariadne	i miss the days when alpine was only for servers, before docker et al came along
[08:56]	Ariadne	we had a whopping 300 packages in the beginning
[08:56]	Ariadne	:)
[08:58]	Ariadne	mirantis's enterprise alpine products are pretty neat
[08:58]	Ariadne	lens is amazing
[08:58]	vZS1	So if OpenBSD, FreeBSD, Alpine, Arch, etc. all have go-ipfs packages. There must be a reason Debian and its derivatives don't package it. I would like to know that reason.
[08:59]	Ariadne	debian packaging is a colossal pain in the fucking ass
[08:59]	Ariadne	pretty much a HOW-NOT-TO example in packaging
● Nov 14
[09:00]	schestowitz	vZS1: yes, me also
[09:00]	Ariadne	every other distro: you just write a single file that specifies how a package is built, etc
[09:00]	schestowitz	no Debian -> no derivs
[09:00]	schestowitz	inc. Ubuntu in most cases
[09:00]	Ariadne	debian: you have to do a shitload of work
[09:00]	schestowitz	whcih makes up most real distros, not joke ones
[09:00]	vZS1	Ubuntu does its own thing. You have snap package for go-ipfs
[09:00]	Ariadne	not anymore, ubuntu is mostly based on snap now
[09:01]	schestowitz	snappy proprietary ramp
[09:01]	Ariadne	snap is FOSS
[09:01]	schestowitz	their stats show it's mostly used to lump in binary spyware
[09:01]	schestowitz	skype, spotify, slack etc.
[09:01]	Ariadne	well, snap itself anyway
[09:01]	Ariadne	the commercial apps distributed through it, are of course, not FOSS
[09:01]	schestowitz	which tells you where canonical and ubuntu users are aiming
[09:01]	schestowitz	they released package stats yesterday
[09:01]	Ariadne	yes, they are aiming at people who would like their computers to be useful
[09:02]	schestowitz	to bad companies
[09:02]	schestowitz	i.e. little gets achieved
[09:02]	Ariadne	that proprietary software more effectively services user requirements is a flaw in free software, not a flaw in proprietary software
[09:02]	schestowitz	another chromebook-like mindset
[09:02]	Ariadne	welcome to capitalism (:
[09:02]	schestowitz	"It's LINUX"
[09:02]	schestowitz	as if having that kernel there is "WIN"
[09:02]	schestowitz	might as well use Android
[09:02]	schestowitz	and say, Android won, we won!!
[09:02]	schestowitz	Google wins, we win
[09:02]	Ariadne	some do that
[09:03]	schestowitz	RMS job "done'
[09:03]	Ariadne	RMS job *not* done, but end users don't care about software freedom
[09:03]	Ariadne	which is a shame, they need it now more than ever
[09:04]	Ariadne	most deployment of free software is done in service of exploitation of the end user at this point
[09:04]	schestowitz	that's what techrights does
[09:04]	schestowitz	it does advocacy
[09:04]	vZS1	There is a reason Ubuntu is the most popular distro out there. It's because they aggressively focus on UX
[09:04]	schestowitz	to remind people of the uselessness of goalless pursuits
[09:04]	schestowitz	like more drm inside linux
[09:04]	schestowitz	not much would be accomplished
[09:04]	schestowitz	and general-purposed computing would be squashed
[09:04]	Ariadne	hdcp support inside linux is admittedly pretty pointless
[09:04]	schestowitz	but hey, squashed "WITH LINUX"
[09:05]	schestowitz	Ariadne: it'll go further
[09:05]	Ariadne	however
[09:05]	schestowitz	hdcp is one aspect of it
[09:05]	schestowitz	and a barrier in terms of compromise
[09:05]	Ariadne	end user wants to watch netflix
[09:05]	schestowitz	like eme in w3c
[09:05]	Ariadne	netflix require EME
[09:05]	schestowitz	netflix is part of the problem
[09:05]	schestowitz	we need to educate people
[09:05]	Ariadne	if you tell end user who wants to watch netflix that netflix is stupid
[09:05]	Ariadne	they will just continue to use windows
[09:05]	Ariadne	(:
[09:06]	schestowitz	not all of them
[09:06]	Ariadne	most will
[09:06]	Ariadne	99% will see that as a non-answer
[09:06]	schestowitz	it's the assimilation dilemma
[09:06]	Ariadne	just like how tons of people think RMS is a nutter
[09:06]	schestowitz	how much do you need to be alike to the thing you replace
[09:06]	schestowitz	to the point where you become what you fighty
[09:06]	schestowitz	and then what?
[09:06]	schestowitz	US 'liberated' iraq
[09:06]	schestowitz	from a brutal man
[09:06]	schestowitz	where's iraq today?
[09:07]	Ariadne	most people don't care that netflix is DRM'd
[09:07]	schestowitz	even worse off
[09:07]	Ariadne	they just want to watch a movie
[09:07]	schestowitz	Ariadne: most don't know what drm is
[09:07]	Ariadne	exactly
[09:07]	schestowitz	so you explain to them
[09:07]	Ariadne	yes, and then most still go
[09:07]	schestowitz	most people didn't know why "those stupid women" should vote
[09:07]	schestowitz	or "their slaves"
[09:07]	schestowitz	but now they vote
[09:07]	Ariadne	"ok, but i just want to watch terminator 9999"
[09:07]	schestowitz	because people got past this brain damage
[09:08]	schestowitz	and realised women can - gasp - think too
[09:08]	Ariadne	and so they put windows back on their machine
[09:08]	Ariadne	and watch terminator 9999
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[09:08]	Ariadne	so, supporting these things is important to actually gain conversions
[09:08]	schestowitz	drm will burn them
[09:08]	Ariadne	sure
[09:08]	schestowitz	as will other aspects
[09:08]	Ariadne	but they won't care
[09:08]	schestowitz	not everything you shove down people's throats will be accepted
[09:08]	Ariadne	they will just say "wah, netflix removed the title i was wanting to watch"
[09:08]	schestowitz	many example of rejected malicious tech
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[09:08]	Ariadne	and go onto something else
[09:08]	schestowitz	lots of defunct DRM efforts
[09:08]	schestowitz	inc. Micrsooft's
[09:08]	schestowitz	like their burned ebooks
[09:09]	schestowitz	brb
[09:09]	Ariadne	this conversation highlights why gnu/linux desktop will never go anywhere
[09:09]	vZS1	This has slipped a long way from what I was saying. I'll provide a simple zipped tarball that people can use on any *nix OS. There will instructions on how to verify the signatures for everything. That's where the work ends. I don't want objective-creep. This is for people who want a portable setup on low-powered machines that is secure.
[09:10]	Ariadne	your average person does not care about technical explanations, they just want netflix & spotify to work
[09:10]	Ariadne	because its what they know
[09:10]	Ariadne	and the only solution to that is not to complain about DRM, but to launch a competing DRM-less service which has a similar enough pricing model
[09:10]	Ariadne	you have some economics experience, you should recognize that
[09:12]	Ariadne	canonical does gnu/linux desktop a great favor by working on tackling things users actively complain about (like "netflix does not work on my computer")
[09:12]	Ariadne	yes, netflix is evil.  spotify is evil.  END USERS DO NOT CARE
[09:12]	Ariadne	the #1 most requested feature for audacious is "make it work with my spotify account"
[09:13]	vZS1	I think you miss the point that a lot of people just torrent DRM content
[09:13]	vZS1	Probably most people
[09:13]	Ariadne	they really don't
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[09:13]	Ariadne	the only people i know who torrent are people who have technical skills
[09:14]	vZS1	You don't need technical skills to go on Piratebay and grab a magnet link to work with your Bittorrent client
[09:14]	vZS1	That's just a lie
[09:14]	Ariadne	most people don't care
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[09:14]	schestowitz	[09:09] <Ariadne> this conversation highlights why gnu/linux desktop will never go anywhere
[09:14]	schestowitz	market share-wise you mean
[09:15]	Ariadne	netflix "just works" with their "smart TV"
[09:15]	schestowitz	if the goal is freedom, it's doing OK and better than before
[09:15]	Ariadne	and costs $8.99
[09:15]	schestowitz	some would systemd is a regression
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[09:15]	Ariadne	schestowitz: yes, see, here's the thing: i think people need software freedom more than ever.  but that requires making linux tolerable to "normal people"
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[09:16]	schestowitz	[09:13] <Ariadne> the only people i know who torrent are people who have technical skills
[09:16]	Ariadne	netflix and spotify also have sync features
[09:16]	vZS1	There are plenty of non-canonical projects that focus on UX
[09:16]	schestowitz	no, they have friends and relatives
[09:16]	Ariadne	schestowitz: some do
[09:16]	schestowitz	some can hand it over to them on usb sticks or similar
[09:16]	Ariadne	but really, netflix and spotify are used a lot more than you think
[09:16]	schestowitz	it's now hard to pass around files
[09:16]	schestowitz	it's getting easier all the time... and bigger files
[09:16]	Ariadne	sure
[09:16]	schestowitz	you can fit 10 full length movies on a thumb drive
[09:16]	Ariadne	that requires caring though
[09:16]	schestowitz	and they never get counted
[09:16]	Ariadne	most people who use netflix
[09:16]	vZS1	You can do that over torrents as well
[09:17]	Ariadne	don't even know
[09:17]	Ariadne	what they want to watch
[09:17]	vZS1	People download terabytes of film via torrents
[09:17]	Ariadne	they just turn netflix on
[09:17]	vZS1	Go look on Piratebay
[09:17]	Ariadne	and look through the list
[09:17]	schestowitz	people don't need to know how to install gnu/linux either
[09:17]	Ariadne	until something looks good
[09:17]	schestowitz	more and more people can now do it for them
[09:17]	Ariadne	anyway, this conversation is pointless
[09:17]	schestowitz	more users
[09:17]	schestowitz	lower learning curve
[09:17]	vZS1	Also
[09:17]	vZS1	Why is this about Linux
[09:17]	vZS1	Most people torrenting probably use Windows
[09:17]	schestowitz	most maybe
[09:17]	Ariadne	because the goal is "make people use free software desktop"
[09:18]	schestowitz	but that's not the point, unless you see how it started... about  DRM and GNU/Linux
[09:18]	schestowitz	not about the distribution of "Content"
[09:18]	vZS1	Most people on the planet can't afford Netflix and Spotify
[09:18]	vZS1	That's why they pirate
[09:18]	Ariadne	i give up on this conversation
[09:18]	vZS1	Even people that can afford pirate
[09:18]	schestowitz	another good point
[09:18]	vZS1	You need to expand your world view
[09:18]	Ariadne	this is fundamentally a waste of time
[09:18]	schestowitz	they like things that are open access
[09:18]	schestowitz	Ariadne: true, many had this discussion before
[09:19]	schestowitz	we are not bringing up very novel thinking here
[09:19]	vZS1	Yes. This has been said many times before
[09:19]	schestowitz	I'll get to doing articles now
[09:19]	Ariadne	you guys live in the "free software bubble"
[09:19]	schestowitz	finished work just no w(9am)
[09:19]	vZS1	This isn't about free software
[09:19]	vZS1	It's about DRM
[09:19]	Ariadne	my 86 year old grandmother is not torrenting her movies
[09:19]	schestowitz	it's not for her
[09:19]	schestowitz	let her use Windows
[09:19]	schestowitz	i'm fine with it
[09:19]	vZS1	Your 86 year old grandmother is not every person on the planet
[09:19]	schestowitz	she'll lose money and more
[09:19]	Ariadne	ah, so the free software desktop isn't for the masses
[09:19]	Ariadne	it's for the classes
[09:19]	vZS1	That's anecdotal evidence and a bad argument
[09:20]	Ariadne	such freedom
[09:20]	Ariadne	:)
[09:20]	Ariadne	grandmother gets to be exploited by microsoft and data mined
[09:20]	Ariadne	but i get to have freedom
[09:20]	vZS1	Most people on the planet can't afford Netlfix and Spotify
[09:20]	Ariadne	do you not see the problem?
[09:20]	vZS1	But they want what's on there
[09:20]	vZS1	So they torrent it
[09:21]	Ariadne	yes, i'm aware that some amount of the population torrents
[09:21]	Ariadne	i'm talking about people in the western world, not the world at large
[09:21]	vZS1	Even people in the western world torrent
[09:21]	Ariadne	yes, some do
[09:21]	Ariadne	i assure you, most do not
[09:21]	Ariadne	i literally run an ISP by the way
[09:22]	vZS1	And you know everything your users do?
[09:22]	vZS1	You've broken packet encryption to find out?
[09:22]	Ariadne	we monitor aggregated traffic flows for security reasons
[09:22]	schestowitz	[09:21] <vZS1> Even people in the western world torrent
[09:22]	schestowitz	since the 90s p2p has been widely used
[09:22]	Ariadne	the metadata provides sufficient insight to tell me that plenty of people are using netflix and spotify
[09:22]	schestowitz	among teens and adults
[09:22]	schestowitz	we cannot just measure 'corporate traffic'
[09:22]	Ariadne	it is called: look for traffic to/from netflix and spotify ASNs
[09:23]	schestowitz	such as "Netflix"
[09:23]	schestowitz	that would miss the point
[09:23]	schestowitz	like 'analyst' who count Linux share by revenue
[09:23]	Ariadne	how would it miss the point
[09:23]	schestowitz	like how much money gets made
[09:23]	schestowitz	it overlooks the real >value<
[09:23]	Ariadne	"almost everyone torrents"
[09:23]	vZS1	Your arguments aren't making a lot of sense.
[09:24]	vZS1	When most of the world can't afford something but a lot of them have access to it
[09:24]	schestowitz	afaik, it's possible netflix still loses loads of money
[09:24]	Ariadne	yet netflix and spotify originate half the traffic going across my network
[09:24]	vZS1	It's pretty obvious how they got it
[09:24]	schestowitz	it did in the past, like Twitter
[09:24]		*Ariadne headdesks
[09:24]	schestowitz	Twitter is cutting off more users now
[09:24]	schestowitz	after the shares collapse
[09:24]	Ariadne	i give up on this
[09:24]	Ariadne	it is like arguing with a brick wall
[09:24]	schestowitz	because you did not convince him
[09:25]	schestowitz	and re software freedom, you did not convince me neither
[09:25]	schestowitz	we need to grow
[09:25]	schestowitz	but not by becoming what we replace
[09:25]	schestowitz	as that would be own goal
[09:25]	Ariadne	in the long run, sure
[09:25]	Ariadne	but you have to convert users in the SHORT run
[09:25]	schestowitz	we try to accomplish something
[09:25]	vZS1	@sche
[09:25]	schestowitz	and upill battles we face because the monpolisers fight back
[09:25]	schestowitz	like Micrsooft grabbing shithub
[09:25]	schestowitz	to attack us
[09:26]	schestowitz	collectively
[09:26]	schestowitz	at the chokepoint and high level
[09:26]	schestowitz	so we need tr deletegithub now
[09:26]	schestowitz	make it another writeoff
[09:26]	schestowitz	Microsoft only loses tons of money on it
[09:26]	schestowitz	while firing and losing staff
[09:26]	schestowitz	now bribing Guido van Icaza
[09:26]	vZS1	Microsoft is subsidised by taxpayers
[09:26]	Ariadne	anyway, this is why the free software desktop will never grow
[09:26]	schestowitz	to become a marketing person for MSVS and Azure etc.
[09:26]	vZS1	It stopped being a sustainable business a long time ago
[09:27]	schestowitz	vZS1: that too, during lockdown they fired about 5000
[09:27]	Ariadne	because instead of talking about actual pain points and user concerns
[09:27]	Ariadne	we get
[09:27]	vZS1	It's only living because of monopoly
[09:27]	schestowitz	and got 3 billion in bailout money from US taxpayers
[09:27]	Ariadne	blah blah blah microsoft
[09:27]	schestowitz	so the bailout prevented no layoffs there
[09:27]	schestowitz	even azure layoffs
[09:27]	Ariadne	so, i'll just continue doing my thing
[09:27]	schestowitz	IIS is dying
[09:27]	vZS1	But that's besides the point
[09:27]	schestowitz	Ariadne: ok
[09:27]	schestowitz	I will focus on patents today
[09:27]	schestowitz	got loads of leaks to put out there
[09:28]	Ariadne	but gnu/linux is an operating system for the classes, not the masses
[09:28]	Ariadne	and you cannot advance software freedom with this attitude
[09:28]	mjg59	And, meanwhile, companies and people that were previously writing free software are moving to non-free licenses
[09:28]		*chomwitt (~chomwitt@2a02:587:dc0f:7c00:393b:7d1b:915d:b337) has joined #techrights
[09:28]	schestowitz	not all
[09:28]	schestowitz	we can reject their stuff
[09:28]	mjg59	And there's no free software community response to that other than "Don't do that"
[09:28]	Ariadne	like for example
[09:29]	Ariadne	schestowitz is spot on when he criticizes zemlin for running macOS and not dogfooding
[09:29]	Ariadne	but the thing is
[09:29]	Ariadne	for your average person
[09:29]	Ariadne	linux is not so easy to dogfood
[09:29]	vZS1	schestowitz: the cron job worked.
[09:29]	schestowitz	zemlin should not be in cahrge of LF
[09:29]	Ariadne	and that is because they have become accustomed to these evil services working
[09:29]	Ariadne	you're avoiding my point
[09:29]	schestowitz	mjg59 talked about him "rocking an ipad" too
[09:29]	schestowitz	who uses that crap?
[09:29]	schestowitz	and does really technical stuff?
[09:29]	schestowitz	nobody
[09:29]	Ariadne	my grandmother uses an ipad
[09:29]	schestowitz	but zemlin is not technical
[09:29]	Ariadne	to watch netflix
[09:30]	schestowitz	(and should be)
[09:30]	Ariadne	zemlin is CEO
[09:30]	Ariadne	CEOs are rarely if ever technical
[09:30]	schestowitz	some CEOs are technical
[09:30]	vZS1	The node is functioning 100% automated now. Big success.
[09:30]	schestowitz	like Larry page
[09:30]	schestowitz	even nadella is technical
[09:30]	schestowitz	unlike Ballmer
[09:30]	schestowitz	Krishna is
[09:30]	schestowitz	zemlin is a tool
[09:30]	schestowitz	monopolists like unqualified people in charge
[09:30]	schestowitz	they're  easier to mislead and control
[09:31]	schestowitz	vZS1: yay!
[09:31]	Ariadne	anyway
[09:31]	vZS1	:D
[09:31]	Ariadne	again, point is, it is legitimate to criticize zemlin for not dogfooding
[09:31]	schestowitz	[09:29] <Ariadne> linux is not so easy to dogfood
[09:31]	schestowitz	see use cases
[09:31]	Ariadne	but one must also examine WHY that is
[09:31]	schestowitz	many just browse and read email
[09:31]	Ariadne	if the use cases are not enabled
[09:31]	schestowitz	so they can use a chromebook
[09:31]	schestowitz	gnu/linux can do anything a chromebook can
[09:31]	Ariadne	schestowitz: yes, and chromebooks are patched
[09:31]	schestowitz	just needs better advocacy
[09:31]	Ariadne	schestowitz: to support widevine
[09:31]	schestowitz	we don't buy ads and bribe OEMs/shops
[09:31]	Ariadne	you do understand this right?
[09:32]	schestowitz	most people don't need that
[09:32]	mjg59	gnu/linux /could/ do anything a chromebook can
[09:32]	mjg59	But it doesn't
[09:32]	schestowitz	your grandma does not need that
[09:32]	Ariadne	my grandma does need that
[09:32]	schestowitz	examples?
[09:32]	Ariadne	because she wants to watch netflix
[09:32]	mjg59	It doesn't have a/b firmware updates
[09:32]	schestowitz	Ariadne: so you have super-grandma
[09:32]	Ariadne	no, i have normal grandma
[09:32]	mjg59	It doesn't have transparent per-user home directory encryption
[09:32]	schestowitz	who needs DRM in the browser?
[09:33]	Ariadne	she has dimentia and watches netflix on an ipad
[09:33]	mjg59	It doesn't have anti-rollback protections
[09:33]	schestowitz	let her stream movies in youtube
[09:33]	schestowitz	no drm needed
[09:33]	Ariadne	youtube movies
[09:33]	Ariadne	are DRM
[09:33]	schestowitz	lots of stuff there, no lack of "content"
[09:33]	schestowitz	not the Google-sold ones
[09:33]	schestowitz	the clips and stuff
[09:33]	schestowitz	the way most people 'use' Youtube
[09:33]	Ariadne	this brings us back to
[09:33]	Ariadne	gnu/linux is for the classes, not the masses
[09:34]	vZS1	Ariadne: I am glad your grandma has something that works for her. And I wish her well. But there need to be alternatives for all the grandmas that can't afford that.
[09:34]	mjg59	schestowitz: You're advocating without having any understanding of what you're advocating against, which makes your advocacy ineffectual
[09:34]	Ariadne	you are basically saying to an end user: "you want to watch a movie you just paid $3.99 for?  LOL"
[09:34]		*rianne_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[09:34]	Ariadne	never in a million years would i deploy a gnu/linux solution for my grandparents
[09:34]		*liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[09:35]	Ariadne	windows 7 to windows 10 migration was already a complete shitshow, i can only begin to imagine what throwing gnu/linux in front of them would be like
[09:35]	schestowitz	[09:34] <Ariadne> you are basically saying to an end user: "you want to watch a movie you just paid $3.99 for?  LOL"
[09:35]	schestowitz	Those are rented, not owned
[09:35]	schestowitz	and for limited time
[09:35]	schestowitz	some learn over time to avoid that
[09:35]	schestowitz	and they download instead
[09:35]	schestowitz	not stream
[09:35]	Ariadne	and most do not care
[09:35]	schestowitz	esp. in some places like poor countries
[09:35]	schestowitz	China and S Korea move to GNU/Linux
[09:35]	Ariadne	my grandmother does not care if she owns the movie or not
[09:35]	schestowitz	Russia claims to as well, albeit slowly
[09:35]	Ariadne	she just wants to watch a damn movie
[09:36]	schestowitz	we'll see if they add lots of antifeatures to these
[09:36]	schestowitz	so we're doing OK
[09:36]	schestowitz	[09:34] <Ariadne> never in a million years would i deploy a gnu/linux solution for my grandparents
[09:36]	schestowitz	good luck giving them windows support
[09:36]	Ariadne	i don't have to
[09:36]	schestowitz	e.g. when automatic updates purge their stuff
[09:36]	Ariadne	i literally
[09:36]	schestowitz	or the machine won't boot anymore
[09:36]	Ariadne	bought an ipad
[09:36]	Ariadne	and said here you go
[09:36]	schestowitz	those fai too
[09:36]	Ariadne	and if it fucks up
[09:36]	schestowitz	our neighbour had one
[09:36]	schestowitz	asked me to help them
[09:36]	Ariadne	we just factory reset it
[09:36]	schestowitz	they could not log in anymore
[09:36]	Ariadne	no big deal
[09:37]	schestowitz	had to bring that to the shop
[09:37]	schestowitz	paid loads of money for "support"
[09:37]	mjg59	This is the fundamental problem of a huge amount of free software advocacy
[09:37]	schestowitz	Apple stuff is NOT infallible
[09:37]	mjg59	It's from a position of not understanding what people actually want
[09:37]	Ariadne	^^^^^^^^^^^
[09:37]	schestowitz	and lots of planned obsolescence there
[09:37]	schestowitz	what many people want is not a yardstick
[09:37]	schestowitz	many people want Trump
[09:38]	mjg59	We don't win by telling people that they're wrong to want what they have
[09:38]	schestowitz	71+ million people
[09:38]	schestowitz	they did not get it
[09:38]	mjg59	We win by providing something that's more appealing
[09:38]	schestowitz	many people also want to kill queers
[09:38]	schestowitz	and they don't get that
[09:38]	Ariadne	what i want is: grandma can watch TED talks, youtube movies and netflix, with universal search
[09:38]	schestowitz	"getting what people want" is a fallacy
[09:38]	Ariadne	iPadOS provides exactly this
[09:38]	schestowitz	and a straw man
[09:38]	Ariadne	no it's not
[09:38]	Ariadne	while the rolling stones say "you don't always get what you want"
[09:38]	Ariadne	we can certainly do *better* at trying to match what users want
[09:39]	Ariadne	alpine got big because we did *better* at matching what *sysadmins* wanted
[09:39]	schestowitz	you don't replace something by becoming that something
[09:39]	schestowitz	:"simple as"
[09:39]	schestowitz	(british talk)
[09:39]	schestowitz	greenpeace isn't giving what people "want"
[09:39]	schestowitz	they want cars
[09:39]	schestowitz	and gasoline
[09:39]	Ariadne	great, but greenpeace isn't producing computer operating systems
[09:39]	schestowitz	should greenpeace start working with automobile giants and fossil fuel?
[09:40]	schestowitz	After all, that's "what the masses want"
[09:40]	Ariadne	greenpeace go and protest things
[09:40]	schestowitz	maybe PETA should work on "Ethical meat"
[09:40]	Ariadne	greenpeace go and save whales
[09:40]	schestowitz	because that's what people want(TM)
[09:40]	mjg59	Greenpeace attempts to move people away from cars by explaining why they're harmful
[09:40]	schestowitz	greenpeace being itself
[09:40]	mjg59	It doesn't just say "Use a bus instead"
[09:40]	schestowitz	and gnu/linux being about liberating users
[09:40]	schestowitz	not Torvalds and "world domination" fixation
[09:41]	schestowitz	llook, they EAT THEIR oWN
[09:41]	schestowitz	they oust even the founder of Linux
[09:41]	Ariadne	greenpeace also do not shame people for having cars in situations where no alternative exists
[09:41]	schestowitz	Torvalds is treated like a bad baby
[09:41]	Ariadne	because they understand that will make people dislike greenpeace
[09:41]	schestowitz	they do exactly that
[09:41]	schestowitz	you must have missed some debacles
[09:41]	schestowitz	like times they stop large boats
[09:41]	schestowitz	and get flak for it
[09:41]	Ariadne	no, they don't.  they shame governments for not providing alternatives
[09:42]	schestowitz	or chain themselves to things
[09:42]	Ariadne	that is different
[09:42]	schestowitz	PETA also
[09:42]	Ariadne	those are commercial operations they disrupt
[09:42]	schestowitz	it's similar in some sense
[09:42]	Ariadne	it's not
[09:42]	Ariadne	it is the exact opposite
[09:42]	schestowitz	mjg59 will read "Similar" as IDENTICAL
[09:42]	mjg59	Liar
[09:42]	schestowitz	gnu/linux uis activism
[09:42]	schestowitz	it's campaigning
[09:42]	Ariadne	greenpeace targets commercial activity
[09:42]	schestowitz	it's about achieving social change
[09:42]	Ariadne	gnu/linux targets end user
[09:42]	schestowitz	linux kernel is not
[09:42]	Ariadne	end user must conform to have software freedom
[09:42]	schestowitz	gnu/linux liberates users
[09:42]	Ariadne	does it really?
[09:43]	schestowitz	yes
[09:43]	schestowitz	it does me
[09:43]	schestowitz	I have much better freedom
[09:43]	Ariadne	yes, it liberates the classes
[09:43]	Ariadne	not the masses
[09:43]	schestowitz	and control over my computing
[09:43]	schestowitz	my wife does too
[09:43]	schestowitz	the masses also
[09:43]	schestowitz	my dad used pclinuxos
[09:43]	Ariadne	i'm glad that you and your wife are part of the classes
[09:43]	schestowitz	he did lots of browsing
[09:43]	schestowitz	firefox suited him
[09:43]	Ariadne	yes
[09:43]	schestowitz	my dad is not technical
[09:43]	Ariadne	i am not saying that for all cases gnu/linux is unacceptable
[09:43]	mjg59	The single biggest thing ever to enable gnu/linux for the masses was Ubuntu
[09:43]	schestowitz	didn't even graduate from college
[09:43]	Ariadne	mjg59: yes, which is patched to support widevine DRM
[09:44]	schestowitz	mjg59: yeah, there were no gnu/linux users before 2004
[09:44]	mjg59	By like several orders of magnitude
[09:44]	schestowitz	like mandriva and all
[09:44]	schestowitz	nobody
[09:44]	schestowitz	mandrake back then
[09:44]	schestowitz	ubuntu is just debian
[09:44]	schestowitz	with gloss
[09:44]	Ariadne	schestowitz: i used to use mandrake back in the 90s
[09:44]	Ariadne	mandrake included proprietary software
[09:44]	mjg59	Look you can take the first Ubuntu beta and compare it to Mandrake and there's just no fucking competition
[09:44]	Ariadne	(netscape)
[09:44]	schestowitz	different times
[09:45]	schestowitz	but SuSE was good back then
[09:45]	mjg59	It's easy to forget how much of a difference there was
[09:45]	schestowitz	with yast2
[09:45]	Ariadne	how is it different?  it is a distribution with non-free software
[09:45]	schestowitz	don't compare ubuntu 2007ish to 1997
[09:45]	schestowitz	not a fair comparison
[09:45]	mjg59	But 4.10 was 100% free software
[09:45]	schestowitz	ubuntu in 2004 was still nothing
[09:45]	schestowitz	I used it in 2004
[09:45]	mjg59	And gained massive adoption in a short space of time
[09:45]	schestowitz	not because of Ubuntu
[09:46]	schestowitz	many major distros, like china's, are debiab-based
[09:46]	Ariadne	these distributions provide non-free software and patch in HDCP etc because end users have use cases which require them
[09:46]	schestowitz	even mint might make lmde the defauly soon
[09:46]	schestowitz	seeing how they treat snapd
[09:46]	Ariadne	you're dancing around the point
[09:46]	schestowitz	Ariadne: we don't need to encoruage drm
[09:46]	schestowitz	no, I know where I stand with advocacy
[09:47]	mjg59	I'm as disappointed as anyone that Ubuntu ended up adopting non-free software in the default install
[09:47]	schestowitz	and you want to make gnu/linux like your mac
[09:47]	schestowitz	and that would help us accomplish little
[09:47]	Ariadne	actually, it would accomplish a lot
[09:47]	Ariadne	because it means
[09:47]	schestowitz	like teaching black americans to abandon black dialects
[09:47]	Ariadne	we have a seat at the fucking table
[09:47]	schestowitz	to become "more like white people"
[09:47]	mjg59	Jesus christ
[09:47]	Ariadne	when you have 50 million users, you can say "haha, know what?  fuck your DRM"
[09:47]	schestowitz	or telling natives to abandon their reserves
[09:47]	Ariadne	and suddenly netflix and spotify care moe
[09:47]	mjg59	Fucksake
[09:47]	schestowitz	put up a suit, enter the rat mazes we call urban cities
[09:48]	schestowitz	some companies dropped drm
[09:48]	schestowitz	for or because of bsd/gnu users
[09:48]	Ariadne	gnu/linux desktop has fuck all negotiating power
[09:48]	schestowitz	or made fallback options
[09:48]	schestowitz	some sites have "old" modes
[09:48]	schestowitz	for people who reject browser bloat
[09:48]	Ariadne	so your activism is pointless
[09:48]	mjg59	Look when you start comparing FUCKING SOFTWARE to PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO ENGAGE IN THEIR BASIC CIVIL LIBERTIES you are not making a strong argument
[09:48]	schestowitz	so we do make gains
[09:48]	schestowitz	mjg59: those things are related
[09:49]	Ariadne	we all agree DRM is bad
[09:49]	schestowitz	in case you did not notice s/w impact on people's civil rights
[09:49]	schestowitz	drones, surveillance on protesters etc.
[09:49]	schestowitz	back door access, union-busting..
[09:49]	Ariadne	but you can't convert people by telling them that netflix is dumb, that spotify is dumb
[09:49]	Ariadne	they will just go back to windows
[09:49]	schestowitz	mjg59: you call yourself "SJW" and discredit that label
[09:49]	Ariadne	to which you say "good, let them use windows"
[09:49]	schestowitz	so foolishly imho
[09:50]	schestowitz	you mock the idea that fs ideals impact other facets
[09:50]	vZS1	DRM doesn't work. You can go on PirateBay and find the latest films and music
[09:50]	schestowitz	true
[09:50]	schestowitz	and many do
[09:50]	Ariadne	vZS1: good for pirate bay
[09:50]	schestowitz	in a protestant fashion
[09:50]	schestowitz	there's drm fatigue
[09:50]	schestowitz	read up on doctorow
[09:50]	schestowitz	drm always fails eventually
[09:50]	schestowitz	and it's becomign tragic
[09:50]	schestowitz	each and every time
[09:50]	schestowitz	people learn to download and keep things
[09:51]	schestowitz	drm-free
[09:51]	vZS1	So your argument about negotiation power falls apart. DRM issue is not about FOSS
[09:51]	Ariadne	yes, widevine is already owned
[09:51]	schestowitz	and "Drm-free" as advertising label is a growing phenomenon
[09:51]	mjg59	I publicly described Widevine as being doomed to failure
[09:51]	schestowitz	netflix was riding vc money
[09:51]	mjg59	What position do you think I'm advocating here
[09:51]	schestowitz	and maybe stilll is
[09:51]	schestowitz	they think they can 'pull it off' with drm
[09:51]	Ariadne	the only position i am advocating is "make sure users can actually do what THEY want to do" without preaching to them about being "wrong"
[09:51]	schestowitz	mjg59: I think yuo advocare defeatism tbh
[09:52]	schestowitz	and we should know better than this
[09:52]	schestowitz	many thought azure would be a thing
[09:52]	schestowitz	it's still losing money
[09:52]	schestowitz	microsoft lays off aazure taff
[09:52]	Ariadne	that is not defeatism, that's "making sure users can grow into software freedom and make the tradeoffs they find appropriate"
[09:52]	schestowitz	staff
[09:52]	schestowitz	to save money
[09:52]	Ariadne	by the way, the ability to make tradeoffs is PART of software freedom
[09:52]	schestowitz	while bribing Guido van Icaza for shilling/spamming
[09:52]	mjg59	I've explicitly called the DMCA technical protection mechanisms bullshit that provide no social benefit
[09:52]	schestowitz	so it turns out "we were right"
[09:52]	schestowitz	We need ti fight on
[09:53]	mjg59	I've encouraged people to circumvent them
[09:53]	schestowitz	re DMCA, delete github
[09:53]	schestowitz	decentralise
[09:53]	mjg59	I've circumvented them myself
[09:53]	schestowitz	it works
[09:53]	schestowitz	lots of software was never banned
[09:53]	schestowitz	like wikileaks is still offline 10 years after Jo and others thought they could pull the plus at amazon alone
[09:53]	schestowitz	*online
[09:53]	schestowitz	not offline
[09:53]	schestowitz	freudian slip
[09:53]	mjg59	I'm not defeatest
[09:54]	schestowitz	you are in some contexts
[09:54]	mjg59	I'm asserting that there are real benefits that proprietary platforms provide to users and simply telling them that they don't need those is not helpful
[09:54]	schestowitz	and you urge others to give up key fights
[09:54]	mjg59	We need to provide an alternative
[09:54]	schestowitz	you can convince some
[09:54]	schestowitz	but you are not convincing me
[09:54]	schestowitz	some said software patents could not be crushed
[09:54]	mjg59	tbf you're a fanatic
[09:54]	schestowitz	that upc was inevitable
[09:54]	schestowitz	but guess what, we're crushing both
[09:54]	mjg59	I'm clearly not going to convince you
[09:55]	schestowitz	it's just taking persistence
[09:55]	schestowitz	mjg59: I'm a fanatic ok...
[09:55]	schestowitz	you know nothing about me
[09:55]	schestowitz	so drm pushers are good people
[09:55]	schestowitz	drm rejection is fanatic
[09:55]	schestowitz	maybe use the term "pirate" while at it
[09:55]	Ariadne	you are somewhat of a fanatic
[09:55]	schestowitz	to describe people who simply reject things with drm
[09:56]	Ariadne	which, is fine, we need fanatics in this world to advocate for the moral good
[09:56]	Ariadne	we also need people that are realistic
[09:56]	schestowitz	that's a loaded label
[09:56]	mjg59	schestowitz: How much DRM have you reverse engineered and published
[09:56]	schestowitz	realism in free s/w is a thing
[09:56]	mjg59	Because I suspect it's less than me
[09:56]	schestowitz	we published a video of rms w days ago
[09:56]	schestowitz	where he speaks of 'free s/w realism"
[09:56]	schestowitz	and his OSI people "treated me like shit"
[09:57]	schestowitz	they don't want pragmatism
[09:57]	mjg59	I have been threatened with lawsuits because I wrote free software that replaced proprietary code
[09:57]	schestowitz	they crush his movement
[09:57]	mjg59	And which gave users control of their hardware
[09:57]	schestowitz	and justify that retroactively
[09:57]	schestowitz	lines like "that's what people want;"
[09:57]	schestowitz	mjg59: that's the cost of doing the RightThing
[09:57]	mjg59	Yeah. That's why I do it.
[09:57]	schestowitz	you didn't do anything more immoral than what they disd
[09:58]	mjg59	And continue to do it.
[09:58]	schestowitz	*did
[09:58]	schestowitz	and likely they lost the battle
[09:58]	mjg59	And you continue to criticise me
[09:58]	schestowitz	so carry ob
[09:58]	schestowitz	*on
[09:58]	schestowitz	don't throw labels like "rape" at people whom you just don't agree with
[09:58]	schestowitz	I never in my life even tried any illegal drug
[09:58]	mjg59	I, uh, didn't?
[09:58]	schestowitz	and here you are associating me with a serious crime
[09:58]	schestowitz	in shittweets
[09:59]	mjg59	Provide the quote
[09:59]	schestowitz	see your tweet
[09:59]	mjg59	Provide the quote
[09:59]	schestowitz	it's not fair to me
[09:59]	mjg59	Provide the quote
[09:59]	schestowitz	you could apologise, but won't
[09:59]	mjg59	Provide the quote
[09:59]	schestowitz	not that apologies matter much
[09:59]	mjg59	Provide the quote
[09:59]	schestowitz	damage was done
[09:59]	mjg59	Provide the quote
[09:59]	mjg59	You're paraphrasing me
● Nov 14
[10:00]	schestowitz	you insinuated that techrights does not stand for good because "rape" something...
[10:00]	schestowitz	that's cheap and debated innuendo
[10:00]	schestowitz	*debased
[10:00]	mjg59	Provide the quote
[10:00]	schestowitz	i don't access twitter, sorry
[10:00]	mjg59	"Insinuated" is how you interpret it
[10:00]		*liberty_box (~liberty@host81-154-173-112.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights
[10:00]	schestowitz	but I saw a tweet like that
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[10:00]	vZS1	The entire backbone of the internet TCP and all that was built on BSD software
[10:01]	mjg59	You literally spend hours arguing about how I was talking about my interpretation of your writing rather than what you meant
[10:01]	mjg59	If you're going to accuse me of something, show the actual text
[10:02]	vZS1	You need to study history of you think decentralisation is fanaticism
[10:02]	vZS1	if*
[10:02]	Ariadne	i dont think decentralisation is fanaticism
[10:02]	Ariadne	i think telling people they are dumb because they want to use netflix
[10:02]	schestowitz	ok ,   good...
[10:02]	Ariadne	is fanaticism
[10:02]	schestowitz	to the fornmer
[10:02]	schestowitz	good to "i dont think decentralisation is fanaticism"
[10:02]	Ariadne	i literally worked for 3 years to build a federated social network
[10:02]	schestowitz	do you think telling people not to hand over their code to Microsoft is "fanaticism"?
[10:02]	schestowitz	Or, put another way
[10:03]	schestowitz	what do you consider makes me "fanatic"
[10:03]	schestowitz	give examples
[10:03]	schestowitz	my language?
[10:03]	schestowitz	my stance on not using software that bad things?
[10:03]	Ariadne	i just gave one: you consider end user wanting to use DRM-controlled services an invalid usecase
[10:03]	vZS1	Calling Roy a fanatic is just an ad-hominem attack
[10:03]	schestowitz	no,
[10:03]	mjg59	"a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, especially for an extreme religious or political cause."
[10:03]	schestowitz	I said, gnu/linux doesn't need drm
[10:04]	schestowitz	because it would be counter-productive both to its goal and many people's interests
[10:04]	schestowitz	not fanatic to say software patent monopolies are harmful either
[10:04]	Ariadne	if it is hidden behind a config option, why do you care?
[10:04]	schestowitz	it's an objective statement, as any coder would tell you
[10:04]	schestowitz	re drm, guess what
[10:04]	mjg59	Look to be clear there are many causes in which I can legitimately be described as a fanatic
[10:04]	Ariadne	just build your kernel with CONFIG_HDCP=n
[10:04]	schestowitz	most people agree with me
[10:04]	Ariadne	done and done
[10:04]	schestowitz	and that makes me anything but fanatic
[10:04]	schestowitz	people dislike drm
[10:04]	schestowitz	those who don't, simply don't know what it means
[10:05]	schestowitz	and that ignorance if being deliberately perpetuated
[10:05]	Ariadne	ok, do you think a ubuntu linux user wanting to access their netflix content is an invalid usecase
[10:05]	Ariadne	yes or no
[10:05]	schestowitz	like apple with its latest "iphone is privacy" billboards all across the UK
[10:05]	mjg59	They're not wrong, sadly
[10:05]	vZS1	>  ok, do you think a ubuntu linux user wanting to access their netflix content is an invalid usecase
[10:05]	mjg59	Because we failed to provide a compelling alternative
[10:06]	vZS1	I think what's being offered by TR is education about why DRM is baf
[10:06]	vZS1	bad
[10:06]	Ariadne	yes, that's fine
[10:06]	vZS1	TR isn't forcing things upon people
[10:06]	schestowitz	nope
[10:06]	schestowitz	how so?
[10:06]	schestowitz	forcing?
[10:06]	schestowitz	we're a site
[10:06]	schestowitz	with database
[10:06]	schestowitz	text
[10:06]	schestowitz	webserver software
[10:06]	schestowitz	we impose/force nothibng
[10:06]	schestowitz	we just talk LOKL
[10:06]	vZS1	Exactly
[10:06]	schestowitz	if we convince peoplem good
[10:07]	schestowitz	, good
[10:07]	schestowitz	is not, we'll try harder
[10:07]	Ariadne	ok, great anyway
[10:07]	schestowitz	with words
[10:07]	schestowitz	not fanaticism at the least
[10:07]	Ariadne	do you think a ubuntu linux user wanting to access their netflix content is an invalid usecase
[10:07]	mjg59	I'm someone who thinks DRM is bad and I read TR and I don't read things that give me arguments I can use with other people
[10:07]	vZS1	So calling people here fanatics only makes you look bad
[10:07]	schestowitz	BTW, we barely write about drm
[10:07]	schestowitz	check our DRM category
[10:07]	mjg59	vZS1: I thought you'd ignored me already
[10:07]	schestowitz	the DRM fight is a hard one
[10:07]	schestowitz	we focus on things like decentealisation and patents
[10:08]	schestowitz	legal instruments of knowledge sharing
[10:08]	Ariadne	again: do you think a ubuntu linux user wanting to access their netflix content is an invalid usecase
[10:08]	schestowitz	and impediment thereof
[10:08]	schestowitz	invalid is an odd term
[10:08]	schestowitz	I just say, Linux sucks if it allowed lots of DRM in
[10:08]	schestowitz	but then again, we know what Linux is
[10:08]	schestowitz	and who Linus is
[10:08]	schestowitz	he never cares about freedom
[10:09]	schestowitz	LF is controlling him
[10:09]	schestowitz	and LF is a front group for IBM, Intel, Microsoft...
[10:09]	Ariadne	anyway, the point is
[10:09]	schestowitz	which is all we need to know really
[10:09]	mjg59	The fact that Linux is GPLed means it embodies no DRM
[10:09]	Ariadne	enabling gnu/linux users to use widevine (which for anything other than pure-software implementation needs kernel support) is similar to giving a heroin user methodone
[10:10]	Ariadne	the goal should be to allow the user to use what they already know
[10:10]	Ariadne	while presenting compelling alternatives
[10:10]	Ariadne	to thus, get them off the "heroin"
[10:10]	schestowitz	that's bayr and switch
[10:10]	schestowitz	*(bait
[10:10]	schestowitz	on two levels
[10:10]	Ariadne	no, it is not
[10:11]	schestowitz	the straw man level
[10:11]	schestowitz	and the idea of "lesser evil"
[10:11]	mjg59	Everything that's necessary to implement Widevine L3 is now public knowledge
[10:11]	schestowitz	like methBiden and CrackDonaland
[10:11]	Ariadne	it is "enable user to use the service they like" and "educate user about freedom-respecting alternatives"
[10:12]	Ariadne	you do the former to bring them into the flock to do the latter
[10:12]	schestowitz	does not always work like that
[10:12]	Ariadne	because even if they continue to use non-free software and services on gnu/linux
[10:12]	schestowitz	you get a flock me meth eddicts
[10:12]	Ariadne	they have some level of enhanced freedom
[10:12]	schestowitz	and then try to tame a bunch of human zombies
[10:12]	schestowitz	rather than deal with a sane community of eager reformists
[10:13]	schestowitz	I use a blob for my wifi
[10:13]	Ariadne	i do not use a blob for my wifi
[10:13]	schestowitz	I'm not all against compromise
[10:13]	schestowitz	I need this blog to do my activism
[10:13]	schestowitz	not to watch some shitty "flick"
[10:13]	mjg59	Why don't you just write a Widevine L3 implementation for Chromium
[10:13]	Ariadne	and alpine is incapable of using widevine anyway
[10:13]	Ariadne	mjg59: i should ^_^
[10:13]	vZS1	You should realise that DRM is snake oil
[10:13]	Ariadne	i do realise that
[10:14]	mjg59	vZS1: I spend about 50% of my working life reversing shit I am extremely aware
[10:14]	vZS1	Plenty of people already do and torrent instead
[10:14]	Ariadne	my goal is not to advance DRM, but to enable normal people to leverage software freedom, at their own pace, on their own terms
[10:15]	Ariadne	great
[10:15]	vZS1	Torrent streaming is also a thing
[10:15]	Ariadne	for
[10:15]	Ariadne	them
[10:15]	Ariadne	so, that is my point
[10:15]	Ariadne	you let them have their netflix
[10:15]	mjg59	Torrent streaming is also a thing that people get arrested for
[10:15]	vZS1	What you fail to realise is P2P technology is advancing rapidly
[10:15]	Ariadne	while educating them about popcorn time
[10:15]	Ariadne	or whatever
[10:15]	Ariadne	this is not hard
[10:15]	vZS1	So there will be P2P DRM free content soon enough
[10:15]	Ariadne	great
[10:15]	mjg59	I am not going to advocate for the anarchists that I hang out with to increase their legal risk
[10:15]	vZS1	Streamed
[10:15]	Ariadne	hope its better than apple TV+
[10:16]	Ariadne	(that is an exceptionally low bar, really)
[10:16]	mjg59	I spend enough time with lawyers
[10:16]	vZS1	Your world view is extremely limited if your think most people on the planet use these services with DRM
[10:16]	schestowitz	you can afford them, mjg59
[10:16]	schestowitz	vZS1: US
[10:16]	mjg59	It's true, I can!
[10:16]	mjg59	I'd rather spend that money on other people
[10:17]	schestowitz	is netflix even running in more than like 70 countries?
[10:17]	mjg59	I get free legal representation
[10:17]	mjg59	It's just not a good use of anyone's time
[10:17]	schestowitz	true
[10:17]	schestowitz	I got pro bono also at times
[10:17]	Ariadne	vZS1: i don't
[10:18]	mjg59	If I tell people to torrent stuff, they aren't going to get free lawyers
[10:18]	mjg59	So it's not an alternative to proprietary solutions
[10:18]	vZS1	And a lot of people who use GNU/Linux probably already torrent
[10:18]	Ariadne	great, good for them
[10:19]	Ariadne	most normal people in the US and Europe do not
[10:19]	mjg59	$10 a month over 20 years is cheaper than a lawsuit
[10:19]	Ariadne	some, perhaps have a "hook up"
[10:19]	schestowitz	when you live in a country like gabon you don't care for drm and still have a PC
[10:19]	Ariadne	but americans, especially, are lazy
[10:19]	Ariadne	they rather throw $10 at the problem
[10:19]	mjg59	Last lawsuit I was involved with ended up costing ~$100,000
[10:19]	schestowitz	Ariadne: and in heavy debnt
[10:19]	schestowitz	debt
[10:20]	vZS1	You can think that if you want. You don't need me to prove you wrong. The traffic and data will speak for itself. So I'll leave it there
[10:20]	Ariadne	the traffic does speak for itself
[10:20]	schestowitz	localised
[10:20]	mjg59	vZS1: When you just say things without indicating who you're responding to it doesn't end up being super useful
[10:20]	schestowitz	drm in US
[10:20]	schestowitz	in other countries, not so much...
[10:20]	Ariadne	netflix is in the top 10 content ASNs for US and Europe
[10:20]	Ariadne	by traffic
[10:20]	schestowitz	because it's bloated
[10:21]	schestowitz	high frame rate/res
[10:21]	vZS1	You lack education in basic statistics.
[10:21]	mjg59	DMCA 1203 is part of WIPO treaties, and is also embodied in EU law
[10:21]	schestowitz	one person can do 10x what others do, and get far less
[10:21]	Ariadne	actually the average netflix stream is maybe 1.5mbps
[10:21]	mjg59	vZS1: I have a PhD that includes stats, thanks
[10:21]	schestowitz	WIPO is corrupt
[10:21]	vZS1	I suggest a good book to teach you how to pick a representative sample population
[10:21]	mjg59	No shit WIPO is fucked
[10:21]	schestowitz	http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/WIPO
[10:21]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | WIPO - Techrights
[10:21]	schestowitz	WIPO needs accountability
[10:21]	mjg59	But it's not a US-specific issue
[10:21]	schestowitz	for sexual abuse and worse crimes
[10:22]	schestowitz	WIPO is like a front group
[10:22]	schestowitz	and a shame for the UN
[10:22]	mjg59	Yeah thanks look I know
[10:22]	schestowitz	like WTO
[10:22]	mjg59	Stop
[10:22]	mjg59	I agree
[10:22]	schestowitz	UN should disband this liability
[10:22]	mjg59	You're right
[10:22]	mjg59	Stop talking
[10:22]	mjg59	My point is that it's not a US issue
[10:22]	Ariadne	vZS1: i don't need to pick a 'sample population', i can literally ask people who run the actual eyeball networks where their traffic is going
[10:22]	schestowitz	but we need to explain this to the general public
[10:23]	schestowitz	wipo changed its chief a few months back
[10:23]	mjg59	DMCA violations in the US are generally illegal in the EU as well
[10:23]	vZS1	I suggest "Statistics Without Tears" by Derek Rowntree.
[10:23]	schestowitz	trying to do damage control by shuffling seats at the deck
[10:23]	vZS1	It seems you also lack education on the scientific method
[10:23]	Ariadne	comcast, for example does over 300gbps 95th% monthly with netflix
[10:23]	vZS1	I don't know any books that can help with that
[10:23]	mjg59	vZS1: Again, PhD in genetics
[10:24]	Ariadne	that's a whole lot of non-usage of netflix
[10:24]	vZS1	Wikipedia has a good article on it
[10:24]	Ariadne	the scientific method has no relevance here, i am asserting that most US broadband traffic is to netflix
[10:24]	mjg59	vZS1: What stats qualifications do you have
[10:24]	vZS1	https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
[10:24]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.m.wikipedia.org | Scientific method - Wikipedia
[10:24]	mjg59	vZS1: How much training in the scientific method do you have
[10:25]	vZS1	That is a good starting point
[10:25]	vZS1	You can then study the statistics book I mentioned
[10:25]	Ariadne	that is something that literally anyone who talks to a network engineer at an eyeball network can verify for you in 5 minutes or less
[10:25]	vZS1	> that is something that literally anyone who talks to a network engineer at an eyeball network can verify for you in 5 minutes or less
[10:25]	Ariadne	i also have direct experience with this, doing network ops inside eyeball networks
[10:26]	vZS1	With this statement you have just demonstrated that you do not understand the scientific method
[10:26]	schestowitz	you cannot compare netflix as b/w to other things
[10:26]	schestowitz	apple/orange
[10:26]	schestowitz	netflix is bloat
[10:26]	schestowitz	it chokes up networks
[10:26]	Ariadne	does not matter
[10:26]	Ariadne	because
[10:26]	schestowitz	I doubt they even profit anything/much/might even still lose money
[10:26]	Ariadne	we have this wonderful tool called IPFIX
[10:26]	schestowitz	very few people use netflix
[10:26]	Ariadne	which can tell us at a per-connection level
[10:26]	schestowitz	maybe 3% of the world
[10:27]	schestowitz	yet over 60% I reckon use the Internet
[10:27]	schestowitz	that means that only about 5% of Internet users care for Netflix
[10:27]	schestowitz	gnu/linux isn't for yuppies
[10:27]	schestowitz	it can be, but that's not the target audience
[10:27]	mjg59	Says who
[10:27]	schestowitz	nor should it be, unless it is a net positive
[10:27]	schestowitz	mjg59: say those who care for gnu
[10:27]	schestowitz	your views may vary
[10:28]	mjg59	gnu/linux is for everyone
[10:28]	schestowitz	when did you first use gnu/linux on your personal computer
[10:28]	schestowitz	no tricky question
[10:28]	mjg59	1996
[10:28]	schestowitz	cool
[10:28]	Ariadne	1998
[10:28]	schestowitz	so you know it since after linux came
[10:28]	Ariadne	before that i did not have a 'personal computer'
[10:28]	schestowitz	I was born a year before gnu
[10:28]	Ariadne	ok boomer
[10:28]	mjg59	And I'm now running it on a system where I ported free-software firmware to the board
[10:29]	mjg59	If you're going to criticise my commitment then honestly please feel free to step
[10:29]	schestowitz	[10:28] <mjg59> gnu/linux is for everyone
[10:29]	vZS1	schestowitz: I suggest you get back to work on your articles.
[10:29]	schestowitz	unlike drm
[10:29]	schestowitz	drm is for monopolists
[10:29]	schestowitz	who conrol users remotely
[10:29]	vZS1	I am going back to work
[10:29]	schestowitz	it's a subjugation
[10:29]	Ariadne	yes, we agree
[10:30]	mjg59	10:07 < mjg59> I'm someone who thinks DRM is bad and I read TR and I don't read things that give me arguments I can use with
[10:30]	mjg59	               other people
[10:30]	schestowitz	yes, let's wrap this up
[10:30]	Ariadne	but some people would rather be subjugated
[10:30]	Ariadne	you have to start somewhere
[10:30]	mjg59	You do not need to tell me that DRM is bad
[10:30]	vZS1	We can't argue with people without a basic education in the scientific method and statistics
[10:30]	mjg59	The first patch I ever submitted to a free software project was to libdvdcss
[10:30]	schestowitz	ok, later folks...
[10:30]	schestowitz	we have a massive guest post coming
[10:30]	schestowitz	26k of text
[10:30]	vZS1	schestowitz: I look forward to it!
[10:31]	schestowitz	after that epo leaks
[10:31]	mjg59	vZS1: I'm sorry was the bit about me having a PhD in a scientific field not clear
[10:31]	vZS1	Signing off ----
[10:31]	Ariadne	lol
[10:32]	Ariadne	same tbh
[10:32]	Ariadne	i guess i need to learn more about the scientific method !
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[10:35]	schestowitz	article's title will be "The Surest Path to Freedom is Removing Your Software"
[10:35]	Ariadne	yeah its good advice
[10:35]	schestowitz	not mine
[10:35]	schestowitz	but it's a provocative title
[10:35]	Ariadne	if you remove your software, and then remove your computer by tossing it out the window, and then raise goats in wyoming for a living, you will have true freedom
[10:36]	Ariadne	it was nice while it lasted anyway
[10:36]	mjg59	Yeet computers, buy goats
[10:36]	Ariadne	goats are very free
[10:36]	Ariadne	they do what they want, when they want, and take shit from nobody
[10:37]	Ariadne	or, put differently
[10:37]	Ariadne	don't need to worry about software freedom if you possess nothing that can run software
[10:37]	mjg59	Can't be tracked if I have no tech
[10:38]	oiaohm	That a myth that you cannot be tracked if you have no tech.
[10:38]	Ariadne	yeah thats true
[10:38]	mjg59	No cameras in Wyoming
[10:38]	Ariadne	the governments have pretty powerful spy satellites now days
[10:39]	oiaohm	Face tracking in china cities good example you don't need tech on you.
[10:39]	schestowitz	wait, the article is not out yet
[10:39]	schestowitz	you don't even know the argumentation yet
[10:39]	schestowitz	nor do I, I'm reading it through now
[10:39]	oiaohm	High res sat photos these days 1 pixel is less than 30cm square on the ground.
[10:40]	schestowitz	Later today "Inside the EPO During Corona" series resumes
[10:40]	oiaohm	In lighting populated areas that enough detail to fairly well track people./
[10:40]	Ariadne	honestly my work in tech has convinced me that i really should at some point go join an amish commune
[10:40]	schestowitz	you can mix
[10:40]	schestowitz	like, leave the phone at home
[10:40]	schestowitz	go to nature
[10:40]	schestowitz	like Arjan did... then he vanished
[10:40]	Ariadne	that is a horrible idea in wyoming :D
[10:40]	schestowitz	and his laptop found nearby with a phone
[10:41]	Ariadne	it is so easy to get lost in the forests where i live
[10:41]	oiaohm	Really idea of going amish or the like is getting less and less of a valid option.
[10:41]	oiaohm	as the technology to track gets better.
[10:41]	Ariadne	several times a year people have to call for a rescue
[10:41]	schestowitz	they could find mushrooms and water in the meantime,  no?
[10:42]	Ariadne	yeah, but we have grizzly bears and moose and shit
[10:42]	schestowitz	phoning the state won't save you from  being mauled by a bear
[10:42]	oiaohm	Lot of cases people eating mushrooms in forests eat the ones that kill them.
[10:42]	Ariadne	that too
[10:42]	schestowitz	Ariadne: you beat me to it
[10:42]	schestowitz	response time too high for really fatal incidents
[10:43]	schestowitz	oiaohm: you never know till ya try ;)
[10:43]	schestowitz	not eat em shrooms
[10:43]	schestowitz	*now
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[10:43]	Ariadne	trust me you don't want to dose yourself with random stuff you found in the forest
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[10:43]	Ariadne	that's a path to a bad time
[10:44]	schestowitz	better chance than starving oneself
[10:44]	schestowitz	or dehydration
[10:44]	schestowitz	the body can eat its fats and muscles anyway
[10:44]	schestowitz	water is the key part
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[10:45]	oiaohm	There are a lot of different greens and bark in forest that you can eat to extend life.   Most with a low risk of killing self.
[10:45]	Ariadne	oiaohm: anyway, the reason for joining an amish commune isn't to avoid tracking by State actors
[10:46]	Ariadne	it is because, literally, technology made since 1850s has been a net negative for mankind really
[10:46]	Ariadne	industrial revolution?  bad
[10:46]	Ariadne	cars?  bad
[10:46]	Ariadne	computers?  bad
[10:46]	Ariadne	amazon ring collaboration with cops?  really bad
[10:46]	schestowitz	except for those who make them
[10:47]	schestowitz	those who help the oppressing are compensated
[10:47]	schestowitz	we know who by
[10:47]	Ariadne	free software is most widely deployed in service to the oppressor, incidentally
[10:47]	schestowitz	not by intention
[10:47]	schestowitz	this is why we need to set things right
[10:47]	oiaohm	Ariadne: problem is parties like the amish are also on the list to be tracked by state actors as well.
[10:47]	Ariadne	no, it is just the way the grand experiment has played out
[10:47]	schestowitz	because of capital
[10:47]	schestowitz	there's more money in oppression
[10:48]	schestowitz	in war, in social control
[10:48]	schestowitz	DRM
[10:48]	schestowitz	M1
[10:48]	schestowitz	GitHub imprisonment
[10:48]	Ariadne	oiaohm: i literally have been at the head of the alpine project.  the feds are likely tracking me already.  i don't care
[10:48]	oiaohm	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agaricus_bisporus  << mushrooms every eatable one there are look like ones that if you are not careful you are screwed.
[10:48]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Agaricus bisporus - Wikipedia
[10:48]	schestowitz	farming people's labour time
[10:48]	schestowitz	for monopoly
[10:48]	schestowitz	centralisation for intelligence and censorship
[10:48]	Ariadne	yes
[10:48]	schestowitz	that's where the money is
[10:48]	Ariadne	and my original point is, sometimes you need flexibility to start to detangle things
[10:49]	schestowitz	that's what also subsidised "big tech" in the US
[10:49]	schestowitz	1.1 trillion dollars a year for "defense" budget
[10:49]	schestowitz	protecting the empire and its corporate actors
[10:49]	schestowitz	27 dollars national debt
[10:49]	schestowitz	trillion
[10:49]	schestowitz	27x1000000000000
[10:50]	schestowitz	so no wonder US has many billionaires
[10:50]	schestowitz	we can even see where their money comes from LOL
[10:50]	schestowitz	graft
[10:51]	Ariadne	for example
[10:51]	Ariadne	you think it is bad that ubuntu integrates widevine
[10:51]	Ariadne	because DRM bad
[10:51]	schestowitz	I didn't even talk about that
[10:51]	Ariadne	but the fact that they do has enabled more users to switch to gnu/linux and gain freedom at large
[10:52]	Ariadne	which was the entirety of my point really
[10:52]	schestowitz	"there's more of us than them"
[10:52]	schestowitz	we can defeat drm in the long run
[10:53]	schestowitz	many times we already did
[10:53]	Ariadne	yes
[10:53]	schestowitz	that's why many drm schemes crumble
[10:53]	schestowitz	not because many adopt them
[10:53]	Ariadne	but in short term, there is value in allowing users to make the choice to opt into using DRM services
[10:53]	schestowitz	but because many get 'burned'
[10:53]	schestowitz	Ariadne: some said the same about 'secure boot'
[10:53]	schestowitz	some dude called mjg59
[10:54]	schestowitz	and some said the same about ooxml
[10:54]	schestowitz	and now we have people sending around those awful files
[10:54]	schestowitz	or lots of google 'services'
[10:54]	Ariadne	when properly configured with user-controlled trust anchors, secure boot is a net positive for a linux user
[10:55]	Ariadne	note i say user-controlled trust anchors there
[10:55]	Ariadne	microsoft as trust anchor is worthless
[10:56]	schestowitz	that's what we have now
[10:56]	Ariadne	that's not what i have
[10:57]	schestowitz	But Microsoft is GoodCompany(TM) now and NotAMonopoly(R)
[10:57]	schestowitz	so it's OK
[10:57]	schestowitz	Thank you, Microsoft
[10:57]	Ariadne	my system has coreboot, built by me, signed by me, which boots into grub payload, built by alpine, signed by me
[10:57]	oiaohm	Ariadne: it is what we have now mostly.   The default CA that Linux bootloaders to work on modern PC secureboot is a Microsoft CA.
[10:57]	Ariadne	which boots into linux kernel, built by alpine, signed by me
[10:57]	Ariadne	oiaohm: yes, i know
[10:57]	schestowitz	you sign your own boot
[10:57]	Ariadne	my point here is that educating users to install their own trust anchors is important
[10:57]	schestowitz	how useful
[10:57]	schestowitz	"I trust myself"
[10:57]	schestowitz	:-)
[10:58]	Ariadne	it is extremely useful, actually
[10:58]	Ariadne	because if TSA fucks with my computer
[10:58]	Ariadne	i will know
[10:58]	schestowitz	don't bring a laptop through airports
[10:58]	schestowitz	you're a geek
[10:58]	oiaohm	Maybe you will know.
[10:58]	Ariadne	since the signing key is sorted on my yubikey
[10:58]	Ariadne	stored, even
[10:58]	schestowitz	TSA is a bunch of sick perverts
[10:58]	schestowitz	the typos who always vote Trump
[10:58]	schestowitz	*types
[10:58]	oiaohm	Setting up your own signing in your system does not mean you system cannot be messed with.
[10:59]	Ariadne	oiaohm: theres multiple layers
[10:59]	schestowitz	yubikey= proprietary
[10:59]	oiaohm	Fun has been the example of infect harddrive firmware.
[10:59]	Ariadne	i do not have a harddrive
[10:59]	oiaohm	SSD firmware?
[10:59]	Ariadne	i do not have SSD
● Nov 14
[11:00]	oiaohm	USB keyboard firmware.
[11:00]	Ariadne	or at least, SSD in traditional sense
[11:00]	oiaohm	These are all different infection vectors found in usage.
[11:00]	Ariadne	NVMe is quite a different creature
[11:00]	oiaohm	Yes and spy agency already have firmware infects for them.
[11:01]	Ariadne	oiaohm: yes, they can mess with some firmware that i do not control
[11:01]	oiaohm	in a normal computer there is quite a bit of that.
[11:01]	Ariadne	however, secure boot helps to catch a lot of fuckery from less sophisticated threats
[11:01]	Ariadne	if an APT is after you
[11:01]	Ariadne	you're boned
[11:01]	Ariadne	just giv eup now
[11:01]	oiaohm	We don't have systems we can properly validate in most cases.
[11:02]	Ariadne	btw in last business i was running, we suspect we were targeted by an APT
[11:02]	Ariadne	because the cofounder ordered a machine from lenovo
[11:02]	Ariadne	and it got redirected to virginia for several weeks
[11:02]	Ariadne	and then showed up
[11:02]	Ariadne	we uhh, donated that machine to charity :P
[11:03]	Ariadne	thanks, but no thanks, on that one
[11:03]	oiaohm	So normal usa spying incompetence.
[11:04]	Ariadne	we had a lot of VIP clients who we managed infrastructure for
[11:04]	schestowitz	[11:00] <oiaohm> Yes and spy agency already have firmware infects for them.
[11:04]	Ariadne	so it would make sense to target us for an implant like that
[11:04]	schestowitz	yup, we have proof
[11:04]	Ariadne	it was funny
[11:04]	schestowitz	best approach is, don't pass any devices with useful data on it via checkpoints
[11:04]	Ariadne	the redirection literally showed up on UPS tracking
[11:04]	schestowitz	you can fetch what you need from the other side over ssh channels
[11:05]	Ariadne	yes, that is what i do
[11:05]	schestowitz	assuming openssh itself hasn't been silently rendered "Fake"
[11:05]	schestowitz	Ariadne: :-)
[11:05]	schestowitz	we think alike then
[11:05]	Ariadne	oiaohm: anyway, i hope in future we will be able to validate even stuff like the USB keyboard and storage firmwares
[11:05]	schestowitz	may main laptop never left the room, let alone the house
[11:06]	Ariadne	but it will take a long time
[11:06]	Ariadne	before we get to that point ;/
[11:11]		*inky (~inky@188.115.230.125) has joined #techrights
[11:11]	Ariadne	hmm, 'wideopenvine'
[11:11]	Ariadne	:D
[11:14]	schestowitz	cheekvine
[11:15]	schestowitz	tbh, I don't know much about that form of DRM
[11:15]	schestowitz	and almost never ever commented on it
[11:15]	schestowitz	to avoid saying something inaccurate
[11:15]	schestowitz	DaemonFC[m] brings that up a lot
[11:15]	schestowitz	and links to bugzilla pages about it
[11:15]	Ariadne	its bog standard "retrieve encrypted AES key inside RSA message" DRM basically
[11:16]	schestowitz	"
[11:16]	schestowitz	<p class="dropcap-first"><a name="top">T</a>he Free Software movement has failed. Its goal was not just to create software, which is a necessary step -- but to give the user control of their own computing.</p>
[11:16]	schestowitz	But users don't control their computing, organisations do -- if those organisations were DOING THEIR JOB, that would help. But then those organisations get bribed by the same companies who controlled your computing before. And then those organisations stop fighting for your freedom, paying it lip service only.
[11:16]	schestowitz	"
[11:17]	schestowitz	"The FSF becomes FSFtv, and it just makes commercials for the freedom you used to have. They don't fight at all, in fact they bend over for monopolies on your behalf. Couldn't you do that well enough without paying for the privilege? Okay, if you need the tax write-off I understand -- but wouldn't the SPCA do just as well?"
[11:17]	schestowitz	I like it so far
[11:18]	schestowitz	"Most of these organisations are stabbing users and developers in the back though. Debian tortures developers and treats them like Amazon warehouse workers. KDE silences developers not unlike the Linux Foundation. The Linux Foundation stole the kernel, and is now putting all kinds of horrors into it. "
[11:18]	Ariadne	ok this is a pocock article isn't it
[11:19]	schestowitz	"The FSF allows coups and censorship against itself, its founder and even its supporters. SFC has betrayed everyone. The GNU Project is partnering piece-by-piece with Microsoft, and already relies on it heavily for more than it admits or cares about."
[11:19]	schestowitz	nope
[11:19]	schestowitz	not pocock
[11:19]	schestowitz	pocock is busy on edX
[11:19]	schestowitz	getting certified and stuff
[11:19]	schestowitz	he's improving his skillset
[11:20]	schestowitz	"Super-arrogant (or possibly even narcissistic or sociopathic) developers like Lennart Poettering (just one major example) don't care about your freedom, or you having control over your computer. They do everything based on the idea of making people use their software."
[11:21]	schestowitz	"They aren't alone. GNOME, which has spent years attacking Free Software on several levels (and both historically and recently) has taken over various components that used to be independent and added others, not unlike systemd did. Some projects give you choices, other projects really try to corral users. "
[11:22]	schestowitz	I really like it so far
[11:22]	schestowitz	because it's all true
[11:22]	schestowitz	if not a tad crude
[11:22]	schestowitz	"These corporate people take over communities, then control them -- they add policies that give large donors control over the project (rather than even the project founders or original authors) and then they kick out the people who made it what it was.
[11:23]	schestowitz	"And they aren't even new lies -- the strategy had to be retrofit to communities (this is the what "Open Source" really is) but the lies are just recycled from everything Microsoft used to throw at "Linux" (including calling it Linux, which over time has itself become a backdoor for the takeover of GNU, which GNU actually realised and once protested)."
[11:24]	schestowitz	"The reason this stuff is so easy to predict, is the tactics only change on the surface. These are old games, takeovers don't really ever change the rules of how takeovers work -- they just tailor them to the latest target. We know what the beginning of a takeover looks like. We know what it looks like in the next stages. We know what the "death" looks like."
[11:25]	schestowitz	"We smile and clap our hands while someone makes a nifty new graphic that says "there is no Cloud, it's just someone else's computer" -- but Richard Stallman is telling you to get code from Microsoft's computers. Jami and BigBlueButton are both developed on GitHub."
[11:52]	schestowitz	Ariadne: "Remove whatever software you can manage without -- minimalism was a path to emancipation as far back as Thoreau, if not Moses. Thoreau practiced voluntary poverty to avoid paying more money that would go to wars he didn't support."
[11:53]	schestowitz	boils down to this
[11:53]	Ariadne	an interesting take
[11:53]	schestowitz	"You can do similar for your computing. There's a lot less e-waste (and less intrusive, technofascist panopticon corporate fuckery) if you install less of this technofascist, corporate crap software with a "free as in freedom" license for many of the components. Forget the spoonful of sugar, stop eating their shit."
[11:54]	Ariadne	meanwhile, i'm halfway done with an EME plugin for firefox that, when supplied with the widevine L3 master key, should theoretically implement widevine DRM
[11:57]	Ariadne	ignoring those pesky restrictions of course
[11:57]	Ariadne	;)
[11:58]	schestowitz	:>
● Nov 14
[12:01]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The Surest Path to Freedom is Removing Your Software http://techrights.org/2020/11/14/removing-monopoly/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/b12bd6a3-901d-4890-9d50-3ab4f54b717c]
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[12:09]	schestowitz	zoobab:
[12:09]	schestowitz	16:09] <schestowitz> zoobab: how's that  "early November" coming along?
[12:09]	schestowitz	[16:09] <schestowitz> For Team UPC?
[12:09]	schestowitz	[16:09] <schestowitz> Nov. 15th soon
[12:09]	schestowitz	[16:09] <schestowitz> we'll have fun writing about that, won't we?
[12:09]	schestowitz	one more day
[12:09]	schestowitz	then we can laugh at them
[12:09]		*liberty_box (~liberty@host81-154-173-112.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights
[12:09]	schestowitz	(Team UPC)
[12:09]	schestowitz	Endless Lies Team
[12:18]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Raspberry Pi 4 Review: Is Raspberry Pi 4 Worth Buying? http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144360 [https://pleroma.site/objects/ac9e44a4-3a41-45bb-be1e-2c54882dddb8]
[12:20]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: The 10 Best Raspberry Pi Starter Kits for Beginners http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144361 [https://pleroma.site/objects/4ab32d7c-5c0e-43f6-b2ce-6af557d559c1]
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[12:23]	schestowitz	Chaekyung: hi
[12:23]	schestowitz	not many updates from your site lately
[12:23]	schestowitz	all on track still?
[12:24]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: KDE Frameworks 5.76 Released with More Improvements for Plasma Desktop and Apps http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144363 [https://pleroma.site/objects/6b0c0753-627b-402c-b8e8-29892b23b16d]
[12:30]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #GNUnet 0.14.0 released http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144364 [https://pleroma.site/objects/ecc18a2c-0857-40cd-9c47-4818c7b463b1]
[12:33]	schestowitz	xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote on 14/11/2020 09:22:
[12:33]	schestowitz	> Someone who twists people's words around and misquotes people and
[12:33]	schestowitz	> invents "facts" doesn't actually have a God-given right to go into IRC
[12:33]	schestowitz	> channels and interrogate someone over an article.
[12:33]	schestowitz	>
[12:33]	schestowitz	> They may have a right to go to IRC-- though the IRC ops explicitly
[12:34]	schestowitz	> dispute this-- they may have a right to ask questions, but half the
[12:34]	schestowitz	> reason they do so is to say "Ah-ha! Now you don't want to talk to about
[12:34]	schestowitz	> it-- do you deny it?"
[12:34]	schestowitz	>
[12:34]	schestowitz	> Literal cults send people to deal with critics using such tactics. The
[12:34]	schestowitz	> problem is, if the person doing it has ill intent, no integrity and no
[12:34]	schestowitz	> authority, there is seriously no reason not to ignore them. Talking to
[12:34]	schestowitz	> such people is probably more of a liability than talking about them. Of
[12:34]	schestowitz	> course that's just my opinion, and doesn't constitute legal advice. It's
[12:34]	schestowitz	> more of a critique of such people.
[12:34]	schestowitz	I think that refers to mjg59
[12:37]	schestowitz	> Dear Roy,
[12:37]	schestowitz	>
[12:37]	schestowitz	> first of all, let me express my empathy for the sudden death of your
[12:37]	schestowitz	> friend. My sincere condolences.
[12:37]	schestowitz	>
[12:37]	schestowitz	> I just came  across an article in Mediapart and it is about the death of
[12:37]	schestowitz	> an employee at ESA, the European Space Agency located in the
[12:37]	schestowitz	> Netherlands, just a few kilometers away from  the EPO.
[12:37]	schestowitz	> https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/131120/l-agence-spatiale-europeenne-ne-sera-pas-jugee-pour-le-suicide-d-un-salarie
[12:38]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.mediapart.fr | LAgence spatiale europenne ne sera pas juge pour le suicide dun salari - Page 1 | Mediapart
[12:38]	schestowitz	> <https://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/131120/l-agence-spatiale-europeenne-ne-sera-pas-jugee-pour-le-suicide-d-un-salarie>
[12:38]	schestowitz	> The article is beyond a paywall, however the important thing is that the
[12:38]	schestowitz	> French tribunal  acknowledges the total immunity of an international
[12:38]	schestowitz	> organisation even if it is held  responsible  for the suicide of an
[12:38]	schestowitz	> employee. Bad time, bad news, but it might open new perspectives for the
[12:38]	schestowitz	> defence of the employees: the Far West law.
[12:38]	schestowitz	> It is a good thing that Mediapart shows a journalistic interest for
[12:38]	schestowitz	> international organisations. AFAIK, they are preparing a series of
[12:38]	schestowitz	> articles about  the EPO.
[12:38]	schestowitz	>
[12:38]	schestowitz	> All the best
[12:38]	schestowitz	This is good news is true (I have no reasons to doubt it).
[12:38]	schestowitz	We will be focusing on the corona aspect at the height of this deadly pandemic -- which patents will NOT save us from. Contrary to what the unfit-to-serve EPO management is trying to imply...
[12:38]	schestowitz	I guess mediapart will based much of its reporting on techrights articles
[12:38]	schestowitz	mediapart has millions of readers in france/french
● Nov 14
[13:05]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Microsoft HATES users. They love (exploiting) #Linux . They love getting money for #patents on things WE created without them, specifically to get away from them. http://techrights.org/2020/11/14/removing-monopoly/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/291fc967-3060-40d5-836b-694b2341b197]
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[13:05]	vZS1	schestowitz: I implemented a rudimentary tracing system with logger for all the automation. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow.
[13:05]	vZS1	To make it easier to debug things
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[13:09]	schestowitz	vZS1: fantastic. Thanks so much!
[13:09]	schestowitz	Earlier on I encouraged people to get ipfs software
[13:09]	schestowitz	[12:41] [Notice] -viera to #boycottnovell-social- Dr. Roy Schestowitz (): A lark whispers in our ears that French media is about to bombard the #epo over #scandalsI guess #mediapart will base much of its reporting on #techrights articles...mediapart has millions of readers in france/french [https://pleroma.site/objects/0fd4f9da-80bc-4860-a2fe-279f6acb9e0a]
[13:09]	schestowitz	[12:43] [Notice] -viera to #boycottnovell-social- Dr. Roy Schestowitz (): Eager and emboldened as we are by upcoming media upsurge about #epo #corruption we'll carry on objectively assessing internal documents. This weekend we'll drop the mother lode... also in #IPFS (more #censorship -resistant) [https://pleroma.site/objects/a37915cf-4880-44d2-af47-6fb282b0acdb]
[13:09]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-pleroma.site
[13:09]	schestowitz	[12:44] [Notice] -viera to #boycottnovell-social- Dr. Roy Schestowitz (): #IPFS Desktop https://docs.ipfs.io/install/ipfs-desktop/ help read and distribute #techrights articles further. No single point of failure, #censorship infeasible. http://techrights.org/ipfs/txt/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/6657aeaa-38fb-491d-9c95-f68287dcd71f]
[13:09]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-pleroma.site
[13:09]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-docs.ipfs.io | IPFS Desktop | IPFS Docs
[13:09]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-pleroma.site
[13:15]	vZS1	Good stuff
[13:15]	vZS1	And yw (:
[13:15]	schestowitz	some people installed it for us
[13:16]	vZS1	I can't rush cron because it needs to work like it does in production
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[13:48]	MinceR	(cat) https://ircz.de/p/20082257
[13:48]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ircz.de | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post object (4841708)
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● Nov 14
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[14:15]	schestowitz	Ariadne: https://torrentfreak.com/google-takes-down-repositories-that-circumvent-its-widevine-drm-201113/
[14:15]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Google Takes Down Repositories That Circumvent its Widevine DRM * TorrentFreak
[14:15]	schestowitz	did you see this?
[14:15]	schestowitz	landed in my feeds today
[14:17]	schestowitz	time to deleteGithub yet?
[14:17]	MinceR	long past it
[14:18]	schestowitz	but the CI
[14:18]	schestowitz	butter pipelines!
[14:18]	MinceR	lol
[14:18]	schestowitz	but the shinies!!
[14:19]	schestowitz	[14:18] [Notice] -viera to #boycottnovell-social- Dr. Roy Schestowitz (): #deletegithub... an ENEMY of #freesw http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/143596#comment-27143#microsoft #drm"DRM is the future." Steve Ballmer, Microsoft CEO [https://pleroma.site/objects/983c5fcf-9744-4b10-ac9a-5a0570c4a6e7]
[14:19]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.tuxmachines.org | Single Points of Failure and Proprietary Entrapment (Microsoft GitHub) | Tux Machines
[14:19]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-pleroma.site
[14:19]	schestowitz	don't worry, sooner or later people will 'get' that
[14:19]	schestowitz	GitHub is an attack on us all
[14:19]	MinceR	gitlab has CI too, not sure about gogs or gitea
[14:19]	schestowitz	not just devs
[14:19]	schestowitz	this is a very positive development
[14:19]	MinceR	and of course CI independent of the repo also exists
[14:19]	schestowitz	will help wake the F up some devs
[14:19]	MinceR	i don't think people get anything anymore
[14:19]	schestowitz	who insist that github is "free" and "just works"
[14:20]	schestowitz	anyway, me back to my links
[14:20]	schestowitz	you can see in the -social channel what I say aboyt it
[14:20]	schestowitz	FSF has said NOTHING
[14:20]	schestowitz	about youtube-dl
[14:20]	schestowitz	I mean, two dozen members of stuff and 3 weeks is not enough
[14:20]	schestowitz	blog posts take a year for the team to prepare
[14:20]	schestowitz	EFF just blames "RIAA"
[14:21]	schestowitz	while showing Microsoft with AWARDS
[14:21]	schestowitz	bloody traitors
[14:21]	schestowitz	money-gathering parasites some of that lot
[14:21]	schestowitz	EFF has a pile of 40 million dollars
[14:21]	schestowitz	and growing
[14:21]	schestowitz	in savings accounts
[14:21]	schestowitz	and can't name Microsoft as a threat
[14:21]	schestowitz	deflection at best
[14:22]	schestowitz	scum
[14:22]	MinceR	the FSF is dead
[14:22]	MinceR	the FSF was filled up with crybullies, RMS gave up, they cancelled him
[14:22]	schestowitz	RMS did not get the memo
[14:23]	schestowitz	and he still lets them control/censor him
[14:23]	schestowitz	he had let the "shit" into his own org
[14:23]	schestowitz	http://techrights.org/2020/11/12/2001-rms-opens-up/
[14:23]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Just-Released Footage of Dr. Richard Stallman (RMS): Open Source People Treated Me Like Shit | Techrights
[14:23]	MinceR	https://img.pr0gramm.com/2020/09/19/227ff2cac25f22f4.jpg
[14:26]	CrystalMath	MinceR: RMS talked at libreplanet
[14:26]	MinceR	and?
[14:27]	schestowitz	it was scripted
[14:27]	schestowitz	and prerecorded it seems
[14:27]	schestowitz	like he was reading something approved for him
[14:27]	schestowitz	video here:
[14:27]		*chris_uk[m] (chrisukmat@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-vqikycflkdycbzvh) has joined #techrights
[14:27]	schestowitz	http://techrights.org/2020/11/05/rms-anniversary-of-the-fsf/
[14:27]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Richard Stallmans Talk at the 35th Anniversary of the FSF | Techrights
[14:27]	schestowitz	watch him
[14:28]	schestowitz	never saw a robotic RMS?
[14:28]	schestowitz	then watch this
[14:28]	schestowitz	worse than sleepy biden
[14:28]	MinceR	well, that explains the love for cancerd
[14:28]	schestowitz	(I am happy Biden won)
[14:29]	schestowitz	(but my dad and I agree Biden is a sleepy buffoon and an embarrassment to the yardstick of American politicians)
[14:29]		*DaemonFC[m] (daemonfcma@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-flzgpycwfoqddnwu) has joined #techrights
[14:29]	MinceR	politicians are shit in general
[14:29]	schestowitz	like Zemlin
[14:30]	schestowitz	the plutocrats want shit "in power"
[14:30]	schestowitz	shit is ease to control.. it's soft
[14:30]	schestowitz	and they get their hands dirty with them
[14:30]	MinceR	almost everyone wants them
[14:30]	MinceR	they'll always say what the masses want to hear
[14:30]	MinceR	without remorse
[14:30]	schestowitz	https://www.democracynow.org/2020/11/13/jane_mayer_trump_2020_election
[14:30]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.democracynow.org | Can Trump Pardon Himself? Jane Mayer on Trumps Desperate Bid to Stay in Power & Avoid Prosecution | Democracy Now!
[14:31]	schestowitz	shit pardons shit, news at 11
[14:31]	schestowitz	at this point even north koreas can have a laugh
[14:32]	schestowitz	you'd expect headlines like this about Kim Kong OWN
[14:32]	schestowitz	pardoning oneself
[14:32]	schestowitz	like talking to a mirrror
[14:32]	schestowitz	Onion could use that
[14:32]	schestowitz	but it's already taken
[14:32]	schestowitz	by real news sites
[14:32]	schestowitz	https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-consequences/
[14:32]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.thenation.com | The Trump-Shaped Stain on American Life | The Nation
[14:39]	CrystalMath	he should pardon Assange
[14:39]	MinceR	well, he should be thankful to Assange, for helping him get elected
[14:40]	CrystalMath	idk if it's really help
[14:40]	CrystalMath	i mean he just revealed the truth
[14:40]	MinceR	that's what twitler would say
[14:40]	CrystalMath	the truth should be out there, anyway
[14:40]	MinceR	yes, only the parts of the alleged truth that were convenient for cheeto hitler
[14:40]	MinceR	not just random parts of the truth should be out there, but all of it
[14:41]	CrystalMath	it's not Trump's fault that Hillary is a warmongering piece of crap
[14:41]	CrystalMath	Trump is an infinitely better person than she is, no matter how many times i look at this
[14:41]	MinceR	of course
[14:41]	MinceR	anti-science would help kill a lot more people than war
[14:41]	CrystalMath	i don't even need to look atTrump
[14:41]	CrystalMath	i just need to look at Hillary Clinton
[14:41]	MinceR	you shouldn't
[14:41]	MinceR	if you did, you'd realize what a horrible excuse for a person he is
[14:42]	CrystalMath	and i know that Ted Bundy would be a better president
[14:42]		*rianne_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[14:42]	MinceR	you'd make the unabomber president if you could
[14:42]		*rianne_ (~rianne@host81-154-173-112.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights
[14:42]	CrystalMath	oh, well, the unabomber is way way higher than the people we're talking about now :P
[14:43]	CrystalMath	other great fantasy choices would be Rev. Chris Korda or Vermin Supreme
[14:43]	MinceR	i prefer nobody
[14:43]	CrystalMath	Rev. Chris Korda is the leader of the Church of Euthanasia
[14:44]	CrystalMath	so you see, a nice religious president :>
[14:44]	CrystalMath	and the first transgender and female president of the US
[14:44]	CrystalMath	it would be amazing
[14:44]	CrystalMath	(also the first independent to win in a long time)
[14:46]	CrystalMath	and the other option, Vermin Supreme, well he's an actual candidate
[14:46]	CrystalMath	and his chosen running mate was actually adopted by Jo Jorgensen!
[14:46]	CrystalMath	so it's almost like he was on the ballot this year
[14:47]	CrystalMath	this was probably the best year for Vermin Supreme politically
[14:49]	CrystalMath	let's hope it keeps up
[14:53]	schestowitz	[14:40] <MinceR> yes, only the parts of the alleged truth that were convenient for cheeto hitler
[14:54]	schestowitz	lol @ "cheeto hitler"
[14:55]	CrystalMath	as if Hitlery Killton would be any better
[14:56]	CrystalMath	regardless of what happened after that, i'm glad that Trump won in 2016, and i think he did a lot of good too, leaving the TTIP for example
[14:57]	MinceR	you forget quickly
[14:58]	CrystalMath	right, i was angry at some ofTrump's decisions
[14:58]	CrystalMath	but at least he didn't start any wars
[14:58]	CrystalMath	i mean that is the most important thing
[14:58]	MinceR	it's not
[14:58]	CrystalMath	yes it is!
[14:59]	MinceR	we will survive a few wars
[14:59]	MinceR	we won't survive global warming
[14:59]	CrystalMath	what a heartless crappy thing to say
[14:59]	MinceR	we won't survive a major meteorite impact
[14:59]	CrystalMath	global warning is a slow process
[14:59]	MinceR	we won't survive the Sun going red giant
[14:59]	CrystalMath	we will probably ALL survive it
[14:59]	CrystalMath	just don't have children :)
● Nov 14
[15:00]	MinceR	the sort of christian fundamentalist idiocy twitler and his VP promotes will only turn this planet into even more of a hell for our remaining existence
[15:00]	CrystalMath	i don't even believe Trump is really a christian
[15:00]	CrystalMath	Mike Pence, certainly is, but why does he matter?
[15:01]	MinceR	i encounter way too many of these "not really a christian"s who try to enforce religious policies against me
[15:01]	CrystalMath	Trump legalized marijuana to some extent
[15:01]	MinceR	cheeto hitler chose mike pants as his VP, that's why he matters
[15:01]	CrystalMath	congress is about to finish that job
[15:02]	CrystalMath	and i'm sure the senate will confirm it
[15:02]	CrystalMath	and Trump will sign it into law before Biden's inaugurated
[15:02]	MinceR	cheeto hitler also chose the more rabidly christian fundamentalist party as his own
[15:02]	CrystalMath	marijuana will be legal in the USA
[15:02]	CrystalMath	it will forever stand that it was legalized during the Trump administration :)
[15:03]	CrystalMath	(even if the motion was started by democrats)
[15:03]	MinceR	no, it was legalized in at least one state before it
[15:03]	MinceR	uh huh
[15:03]	MinceR	so you're trying to rob the "democrats" of their motion to glorify Agent Orange
[15:03]	MinceR	and afaik all recreational drugs were legalized in oregon by the people
[15:04]	CrystalMath	there could have been so much worse republican presidents, i don't understand why you're so angry at Trump
[15:04]	MinceR	i haven't seen worse ones yet
[15:04]	CrystalMath	this one didn't harm abortion
[15:04]	MinceR	but i'm sure the stupid party will come up with worse candidates yet
[15:04]	CrystalMath	are you blind? even Reagan was super anti-drug
[15:04]	MinceR	yes he did
[15:05]	CrystalMath	and Reagan was loved by the entire country
[15:05]	MinceR	he put a supreme court judge in place who will do everything she can to ban abortion
[15:05]	CrystalMath	that's speculation
[15:05]	MinceR	yes, ronnie raygun was crazy too
[15:05]	CrystalMath	Amy Coney Barrett in particular believes that the supreme court should not have so much power
[15:05]	CrystalMath	that it should be democratic, up to the legislators
[15:05]	CrystalMath	to decide
[15:06]	MinceR	she probably actually believes that it should be up to "God"
[15:06]	MinceR	she's a christian fundamentalist like scalia
[15:07]	CrystalMath	no, the best kind of person for the supreme court is not one who has "the right belief" (according to your church) but the one who says "my personal belief is not important"
[15:07]	CrystalMath	the best supreme court judge is the one who is willing to ignore their personal belief
[15:07]	CrystalMath	and Amy Coney Barrett might just be the one to do it
[15:07]	MinceR	https://imgur.com/gallery/OqwlS8F
[15:07]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Mystery Sword! What will it be? - Album on Imgur
[15:07]	MinceR	i don't have a church
[15:07]	CrystalMath	yes you do
[15:07]	MinceR	> might
[15:07]	MinceR	and so you admit you're speculating
[15:08]	CrystalMath	well what she said she will do is really hard
[15:08]	MinceR	ah yes, the good old religious zealot's assumption that everyone is religious
[15:08]	MinceR	"it's just not possible that someone doesn't believe in some random unsubstantiated bullshit!"
[15:08]	CrystalMath	anyway, i think you're a member of the church of global warming and the latter day scientists
[15:09]	MinceR	ah yes
[15:09]	MinceR	science is now a "religion" to you because you don't agree with it
[15:09]	CrystalMath	i wasn't referring to actual science :P
[15:09]	MinceR	after all, the "good book" told you that you get to do whatever to this planet and screw anyone who says otherwise
[15:10]	CrystalMath	umm, would a supporter of the church of euthanasia believe in human supremacy?
[15:10]	CrystalMath	absolutely not
[15:10]	CrystalMath	i believe in human extinction, actually
[15:10]	MinceR	and you'll try to do it in the most devastating way
[15:11]	MinceR	making sure all life dies on this planet
[15:11]	CrystalMath	no, you see i don't think global warming is truly unrepairable
[15:11]	CrystalMath	it's going to disrupt us more, as we've built a whole framework of things that we depend on
[15:11]	CrystalMath	once human society tears down individual humans are done for
[15:11]	CrystalMath	but non-human animals will be fine
[15:12]	CrystalMath	another great event that would help planet earth would be a massive solar flare
[15:12]	CrystalMath	it would be much kinder
[15:12]	MinceR	yeah, maybe we could stop right now
[15:12]	MinceR	but we won't
[15:12]	CrystalMath	but it's also connected - global warming disrupts the earth's magnetic field
[15:12]	MinceR	in part thanks to cheeto hitler
[15:12]	superkuh	CrystalMath sure is good at saying wrong things.
[15:13]	MinceR	"conservatives" won't stop denying global warming's existence until it's well past the point of no return
[15:13]	CrystalMath	as for the melting of the polar ice caps, i think you could predict it a million years ago
[15:13]	superkuh	Just tearing across freenode recently.
[15:13]	MinceR	CrystalMath: so, how many non-human animals live on Venus?
[15:13]	MinceR	how many of them _could_ survive there?
[15:13]	CrystalMath	superkuh: what did i say that's wrong?
[15:13]	MinceR	just about everything
[15:13]	CrystalMath	MinceR: none, of course; but i don't think the earth will be like venus
[15:14]	MinceR	of course you don't
[15:14]	MinceR	"God" will save you!
[15:14]	CrystalMath	no, of course not
[15:14]	CrystalMath	there's no god
[15:14]	CrystalMath	what will happen
[15:14]	CrystalMath	is that humans will die out
[15:14]	CrystalMath	and then the planet will get back to normal
[15:14]	CrystalMath	i'm for saving the planet but AFTER killing off humans
[15:14]	MinceR	it will never go back to normal
[15:14]	CrystalMath	you do realize the earth has been hotter and colder than now, right?
[15:14]	MinceR	especially if religious nutcases and racists manage to stir up some more wars to try and make sure other cults/races die out before they do
[15:15]	MinceR	using weapons that were developed using knowledge they claim to be lies
[15:15]	CrystalMath	or maybe some Bidens stir up wars
[15:15]	MinceR	could be
[15:15]	CrystalMath	Bush is firmly anti-Trump
[15:15]	MinceR	while they're not as rabidly christian fundamentalist as the "republicans", the "democrats" are still christian fundamentalists
[15:15]	CrystalMath	he's on your side :)
[15:16]	MinceR	bush is a christian fundamentalist too
[15:16]	CrystalMath	the problem is that you're all human supremacists
[15:16]	CrystalMath	would you even want to save the planet, if you knew that a saved planet is one that doesn't have you nor your kind?
[15:16]	CrystalMath	i would
[15:16]	MinceR	i would
[15:17]	MinceR	but i'd prefer to change humans so they'd be worthy of survival
[15:17]	CrystalMath	well i think the problem is human technology
[15:17]	MinceR	or at least get rid of the ones that are holding us back
[15:17]	CrystalMath	and i don't think you can really stop that
[15:17]	MinceR	without human technology, nothing on earth is likely to survive for long
[15:17]	CrystalMath	nonsense
[15:17]	CrystalMath	it survived for billions of years
[15:18]	MinceR	oh wait, i forgot, your bible doesn't mention the Sun going red giant
[15:18]	CrystalMath	nature is way better than anything humans ever invented
[15:18]	MinceR	or asteroids
[15:18]	CrystalMath	i'm a nature supremacist / anti-humanist
[15:18]	MinceR	so where are the non-human natural spaceships?
[15:18]	MinceR	where are the non-human natural anti-asteroid missiles?
[15:18]	CrystalMath	nature kills species off all the time, i do not question it
[15:19]	MinceR	none of it will matter in about 5 billion years
[15:19]	CrystalMath	there are other planets
[15:19]	MinceR	unless we get our act together and save this biosphere with our technology
[15:19]	CrystalMath	nature will evolve something there
[15:19]	MinceR	and that something will be wiped out
[15:19]	CrystalMath	life isn't serious business
[15:19]	MinceR	probably before it even evolves sapience
[15:19]	CrystalMath	good
[15:19]	CrystalMath	i'm against intelligence
[15:20]	CrystalMath	i hope that nothing like humanity ever forms ever again
[15:20]	MinceR	that explains so much
[15:20]	MinceR	including your love for cheeto hitler
[15:20]	MinceR	finally a human without intelligence!
[15:21]	CrystalMath	no i'm just against it, i hope for my own death and the death of all those like me
[15:21]	CrystalMath	ultimately all life in the universe will end eventually
[15:21]	CrystalMath	but at least there won't be anyone to whine about it
[15:22]	CrystalMath	without us, it will be populated only by proud creatures that will accept their death with dignity
[15:22]	CrystalMath	this whole "god" thing you speak of is precisely the undignified avoidance of the NECESSITY of death
[15:22]	CrystalMath	and the greatness of death
[15:23]	CrystalMath	just like your vision of science as conquering all obstacles
[15:23]	CrystalMath	my vision of science is just gathering knowledge for the purpose of learning about and revering nature, and debunking stupid myths
[15:24]	CrystalMath	i don't believe in conquering death, i believe in accepting it
[15:25]		*chomwitt has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[15:25]	MinceR	death is certainly better than what "conservatives" would turn life into if they had all the power
[15:28]	CrystalMath	death is certain better than what the technocrats would turn life into if they had all the power
[15:28]	CrystalMath	*certainly
[15:29]	MinceR	you don't even know what technocrats are
[15:33]	MinceR	https://xkcd.com/2151/
[15:33]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-xkcd: A/B
[15:35]	CrystalMath	MinceR: technocracy as in the rule of so-called experts
[15:37]	CrystalMath	i will admit i was really off the mark when i said "anti-science would be good", rather, we should be anti-experts
[15:37]		*XRevan86 sacrifices green house emissions to the global warming god
[15:37]	CrystalMath	according to Richard Feynman, science is the belief in the ignorance of experts
[15:38]	CrystalMath	so "anti-science" would certainly mean something like a dogmatic religion
[15:38]	MinceR	very nice twisting of words
[15:38]	MinceR	do words mean anything to you anymore?
[15:38]	CrystalMath	well i'm actually trying to correct what i said a few days ago
[15:38]	XRevan86	dogma, definition: A doctrine (or set of doctrines) relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth authoritatively by a religious organization or leader.
[15:39]	CrystalMath	we should not discard science
[15:39]	MinceR	by making all the words in it make the opposite?
[15:39]	MinceR	s/make/mean/
[15:39]	XRevan86	A dogmatic religion is any religion.
[15:39]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: fine :P
[15:40]	CrystalMath	MinceR: so what is your definition of a technocracy?
[15:40]	XRevan86	"A system of governance where people who are skilled or proficient govern in their respective areas of expertise."
[15:40]	CrystalMath	yes, this is bad
[15:41]	MinceR	CrystalMath: irrelevant, as i didn't bring it up
[15:41]	CrystalMath	because it is precisely the rule of so-called experts that i mentioned above
[15:41]	MinceR	but yeah, it's so much better to have unskilled and nonproficient people govern :>
[15:41]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: I think what this is trying to oppose is the efficient-manager-cracy
[15:41]	CrystalMath	kind of like when they say that science tells us to do covid lockdowns
[15:41]	CrystalMath	which is bullcrap
[15:41]	MinceR	i can see where the love for Steaming Dump comes from
[15:41]	CrystalMath	science can tell us that not doing covid lockdowns will lead to many deaths
[15:41]	CrystalMath	science CANNOT tell us that those deaths are *bad*
[15:41]	MinceR	no, science tells us that one way to slow down the spread of the disease is to do lockdowns
[15:42]	XRevan86	Humans, when will you learn that dying is good?
[15:42]	MinceR	science does not tell us goals, only likely ways of approaching them
[15:42]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: exactly
[15:42]	MinceR	today's society teaches people that dying is good
[15:42]	MinceR	but it's conditional
[15:42]	XRevan86	I for one welcome our new genocidal overlords.
[15:42]	MinceR	dying is good because it lets one out of this hell (hopefully)
[15:42]	MinceR	it doesn't have to be this way
[15:42]	CrystalMath	the universe will always be cruel to all complexity in it
[15:43]	CrystalMath	but i love and accept that cruelty
[15:43]	CrystalMath	that's why i'm not killing myself
[15:43]	CrystalMath	solely because i'm a masochist
[15:43]	MinceR	if you didn't have that complexity, you would be unable to love or accept that cruelty
[15:43]	CrystalMath	i know
[15:43]	CrystalMath	it's like a perfect system
[15:44]	CrystalMath	the first level of cruelty is being forced to acknowledge it
[15:44]	MinceR	if the point of a perfect system is suffering, then today's society is ideal for you
[15:44]	MinceR	it's pretty good at causing suffering, after all
[15:44]	XRevan86	MinceR: needless suffering even
[15:44]	CrystalMath	well i don't know
[15:44]	MinceR	and in that case, you should also be pro-war
[15:44]	CrystalMath	i don't like what humans do
[15:44]	CrystalMath	i like nature's imposed cruelty
[15:44]	MinceR	war is pretty good at causing suffering and death
[15:45]	CrystalMath	and why do i like conservatives? well
[15:45]	CrystalMath	i think that conservatives won't be the one chipping people
[15:45]	CrystalMath	if anyone does that, it will be people like you
[15:45]	CrystalMath	so i support conservatives
[15:45]	MinceR	that's ridiculous
[15:45]	CrystalMath	*the ones
[15:45]	MinceR	"conservatives" don't even understand why chipping people is bad
[15:45]	CrystalMath	sure they do, they have that book of revelations
[15:45]	MinceR	and they trust the people pushing the chips because those people are rich
[15:46]	MinceR	do they?
[15:46]	XRevan86	They'll be the first to chip themselves if that gives them a Netflix discount.
[15:46]	MinceR	they didn't even recognize the antichrist
[15:46]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: This stuff can be applied to anything, they might, they might not.
[15:47]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: yeah, i can't explain it, there's some kind of aura of awesomeness around Trump
[15:47]	CrystalMath	like he's gonna fix everything, he just projects this aura
[15:47]	MinceR	the aura of anti-intelligence
[15:47]	CrystalMath	MinceR: :P
[15:47]	CrystalMath	that made me laugh out loud actually
[15:47]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: It's called "impression"
[15:48]	XRevan86	and it's more of your impression of him formed by your biases, beliefs, and whichever propaganda you consumed.
[15:48]	CrystalMath	well, okay i think i know what the bias is
[15:48]	CrystalMath	i would like a leader that will lead humanity back to a simpler life
[15:49]	CrystalMath	and Trump seems like a very simple person
[15:49]	CrystalMath	and a powerful simple person
[15:49]	XRevan86	A holy saboteur
[15:49]	MinceR	he wouldn't be able to survive a simpler life
[15:49]	MinceR	he depends on other people to keep him alive
[15:49]	CrystalMath	but he already did
[15:49]	CrystalMath	he lived in the past
[15:49]	CrystalMath	he's 70 now
[15:49]	MinceR	everyone has
[15:49]	XRevan86	He will gorbachevise the United States and lead it to star^W salvation
[15:49]	MinceR	but i'm referring to a much more distant past
[15:50]	CrystalMath	yeah i don't have my hopes up that high
[15:50]	MinceR	he won't do anything, even the "republicans" are tired of him now
[15:50]	CrystalMath	i think Trump could maybe set us back to the 60s, that's about the best possible result
[15:50]	XRevan86	MinceR: It's more of a dream picture of CrystalMath than something reflected in reality
[15:50]	MinceR	ah yes, alternative reality
[15:50]	XRevan86	I don't mean it like he actually "will"
[15:50]	MinceR	"alternative facts"
[15:51]	CrystalMath	yeah it's possible
[15:51]	CrystalMath	i kinda accept that already
[15:51]	XRevan86	I do think that gorbachevisation is a fun way to look at the hopes and dreams of CrystalMath.
[15:52]	CrystalMath	i always vote for simpler people
[15:52]	CrystalMath	like, given the choice between voting for a scientist or a farmer, i voted for a farmer
[15:52]	CrystalMath	i was, in real life, given such a choice
[15:52]	CrystalMath	i think simpler people are better people
[15:52]	MinceR	we could produce people who could attract votes of people like CrystalMath, but removing much of the brain right after birth is unethical
[15:53]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: Do you think that Russia is a good role-model for the US?
[15:53]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: i think that i don't really know enough about russia
[15:54]	XRevan86	Good answer %).
[15:54]	CrystalMath	what i like about it, are the huge areas that are just trees and nature
[15:54]	CrystalMath	but you can't really move those
[15:54]	MinceR	yet you support the Moscovian Candidate :>
[15:54]	CrystalMath	and Trump surely isn't creating that
[15:55]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: And illegal woodcutting and uncontrolled pollution
[15:55]	CrystalMath	if i moved to russia i wouldn't live in Moscow
[15:55]	XRevan86	Russia doesn't treasure nature one bit. It has an abundance of it and it takes it as free stuff.
[15:55]	CrystalMath	i would choose some smaller town
[15:56]	MinceR	and does everything it can to destroy it
[15:56]	CrystalMath	much smaller
[15:56]	CrystalMath	well i am aware that russia is big on fossil fuels and natural gas
[15:56]	MinceR	like melting the permafrost, releasing ancient methane from it
[15:56]	MinceR	and devastating wildlife
[15:56]	XRevan86	There's even a quasi-illegal import of radioactive waste.
[15:56]	CrystalMath	the permafrost has not always been there MinceR :P
[15:57]	XRevan86	Because this abundance of territory is also an abundance in dumping ground.
[15:57]	MinceR	neither has the Earth
[15:57]	CrystalMath	i don't think humans can melt enough of it to make a difference, as it has to go away anyway
[15:57]	CrystalMath	even without us, it would go away eventually
[15:57]	MinceR	by then we'd be able to handle it
[15:57]	CrystalMath	we SHOULDN'T handle it
[15:57]	CrystalMath	we should let nature do its t hing
[15:57]	CrystalMath	*thing
[15:57]	MinceR	and we could save earth life
[15:58]	CrystalMath	you can't save earth life, you can only change it
[15:58]	MinceR	earth life is beautiful, why do you want it to die out?
[15:58]	CrystalMath	in your direction
[15:58]	CrystalMath	it wouldn't die out without permafrost
[15:58]	MinceR	some of it would
[15:58]	CrystalMath	yes
[15:58]	CrystalMath	it would change
[15:58]	CrystalMath	as it always has
[15:58]	CrystalMath	that's what life is all about
[15:58]	MinceR	and without technology, all of it will in ~5 billion years
[15:58]	MinceR	or earlier
[15:58]	CrystalMath	species go extinct
[15:58]	MinceR	maybe to someone who worships death, life is all about death
[15:58]	CrystalMath	no
[15:59]	CrystalMath	death is just an important part of life
[15:59]	CrystalMath	to love life is to love death
[15:59]	CrystalMath	to hate death is to hate life
[15:59]	vZS1	This planet is the best we've got
[15:59]	MinceR	yes, going extinct is so important to earth life
[15:59]	vZS1	We know we can survive here
[15:59]	CrystalMath	vZS1: it's not for us
[15:59]	CrystalMath	we just happened to evolve here
[15:59]	CrystalMath	it was not made for us, nor are things ever made for us
[15:59]	vZS1	Everything else is conjecture
● Nov 14
[16:00]	MinceR	it's not for us, it's for the Sun!
[16:00]	CrystalMath	MinceR: i would be strongly against controlling nature
[16:00]	MinceR	CrystalMath's sacrificial pyre
[16:00]	CrystalMath	at every turn
[16:00]	CrystalMath	the desire to control nature in my opinion is evil
[16:00]	CrystalMath	it's anthropocentrism
[16:00]	MinceR	from my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
[16:01]	CrystalMath	the sith are evil too :P
[16:02]	CrystalMath	anyone who wants to control something rather than let it go with the flow is evil
[16:03]	MinceR	so why do you control your fingers to type into this chat? just go with the flow -- starve and decompose.
[16:03]	CrystalMath	because i'm evil
[16:03]	CrystalMath	however, at least i will die
[16:03]	CrystalMath	eventually
[16:03]	CrystalMath	and i'm happy about that
[16:03]	XRevan86	What is the main property of life? It's evil.
[16:04]	MinceR	yeah, it locally goes against entropy
[16:04]	CrystalMath	MinceR: in all seriousness, i believe all ambition to be evil
[16:04]	XRevan86	That pretty much sums up life.
[16:05]	CrystalMath	intrinsically i'm disgusted by ambition
[16:05]	vZS1	schestowitz: so what I've done is that for each script I've generated a trace ID that makes it easy to associate log output with the script.
[16:05]	XRevan86	All life has the ambition to live.
[16:06]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: idk if i look at it that far
[16:06]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: i mean, i just hate ambitions to be above something else
[16:06]	CrystalMath	although you could say life has the ambition to be above minerals
[16:06]	CrystalMath	then again, i think minerals are alive too in some way, after all, processes occur on them
[16:06]	MinceR	so does the atmosphere
[16:07]	XRevan86	My computer is alive, even when it's powered off.
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[16:11]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: but anyway, russia is so big that you can find areas that are basically untouched
[16:11]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: Right, and then someone will dump shit into it.
[16:11]	CrystalMath	but russia has a good space program, they could launch waste into space
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[16:12]	XRevan86	30 years ago it was in areas 30 years ahead
[16:13]	XRevan86	now it's just *a* space programme
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[16:16]	MinceR	launching waste into space is incredibly expensive
[16:16]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in #Techrights http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144365 [https://pleroma.site/objects/891510ab-cdb1-480b-9d0a-ea708f83aded]
[16:16]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: You're assuming non-smart people and no progress do good to a country
[16:16]	MinceR	even richer countries couldn't afford to do that, let alone russia
[16:18]	XRevan86	MinceR: Russia is rich. It just allocated more than a billion dollars for Syria.
[16:19]	vZS1	Oligarchs are rich
[16:19]	MinceR	XRevan86: these tables say otherwise >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
[16:19]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita - Wikipedia
[16:20]	XRevan86	MinceR: It doesn't invest in its own economy, why would the GDP be high
[16:20]	vZS1	Russia invests plenty of money
[16:20]	vZS1	In its plutocracy
[16:20]	MinceR	it also doesn't allow for a diverse economy
[16:20]	XRevan86	It does invest in monopolies, that it does.
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[16:22]	vZS1	MinceR, XRevan86, consider taking a bit of a rest from IRC. It is the weekend. Don't get IRC fatigue. Expanding your ignore list may even help your blood pressure. (:
[16:23]	XRevan86	vZS1: I'm not the one who produced a million messages this night :)
[16:23]	MinceR	:)
[16:24]	vZS1	We could use more cats around here
[16:25]	XRevan86	vZS1: Nay, they're ambitious and evil
[16:26]	vZS1	Dogs work too
[16:26]	MinceR	no they don't
[16:26]	XRevan86	same
[16:26]	MinceR	dogs are stinky, filthy, stupid and evil
[16:26]	XRevan86	Now rocks, now that's good stuff.
[16:26]	MinceR	lol
[16:26]	vZS1	Minerals
[16:27]	MinceR	rocks have the ambition to be above the molten core
[16:27]	MinceR	such arrogance.
[16:27]	XRevan86	https://www.metalinfo.ru/ru/news/106856_big.jpg what a cutie
[16:27]	XRevan86	MinceR: No, don't talk shit about rocks, they just happened to be above.
[16:28]	XRevan86	It's not ambition, it's circumstance!
[16:28]	MinceR	lol
[16:29]	XRevan86	(rock) https://centralasia.news/uploads/posts/2019-12/1575529929_zheleznaja-ruda.jpg
[16:29]	vZS1	That's looks like it could be an item in a card game
[16:30]	vZS1	s/That's/That
[16:30]	MinceR	(cat) https://ircz.de/p/20081962
[16:30]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ircz.de | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post object (4834966)
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● Nov 14
[17:08]	MinceR	https://xkcd.com/2169/
[17:08]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-xkcd: Predictive Models
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[17:58]	DaemonFC[m]	We only barely got rid of this son of a bitch after 4 years of watching him try to knock our country over to appease the far right because he thought it would clear the way for 8 years of looting.
[17:58]	DaemonFC[m]	With Assange, I say hang him.
[17:58]	DaemonFC[m]	Hang him high.
[17:58]	CrystalMath	DaemonFC[m]: screw you you sack of human garbage
[17:59]		*birkoff has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
[17:59]	CrystalMath	DaemonFC[m]: Assange is a hero
[17:59]	CrystalMath	DaemonFC[m]: i hope you and your bastard Biden get shot
[17:59]	CrystalMath	DaemonFC[m]: but ESPECIALLY you
● Nov 14
[18:00]	scientes	CrystalMath, just ignore him like I do
[18:00]	scientes	XRevan86, the obsidion in it looks like the eyes of an insect
[18:00]	scientes	where there is no iron
[18:01]	DaemonFC[m]	https://news.yahoo.com/trump-win-fantasy-electors-bid-053422014.html?guccounter=1
[18:01]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-news.yahoo.com | GOP leaders in 4 states quash dubious Trump bid on electors
[18:02]	CrystalMath	scientes: you're right that there's no sense in talking to someone who believes that it's not bad to commit heinous crimes but rather it's bad to SHOW that someone committed heinous crimes
[18:03]	CrystalMath	i can't die until Hillary Clinton dies, so that i can throw a party on that day
[18:03]	CrystalMath	it will be the best day ever
[18:03]	scientes	CrystalMath, breathe
[18:03]	scientes	I think you are forgetting to breathe
[18:06]	XRevan86	scientes: Breathing is evil anyway.
[18:06]	CrystalMath	everyone in the american administration between 1992 and 2016 deserves to be tortured to death
[18:06]	CrystalMath	and even that wouldn't be enough
[18:07]	CrystalMath	actually 1988 to 2016
[18:08]	CrystalMath	i think the entire time period 1988-2016 would be best erased from history, as it was so disasterous
[18:15]		*birkoff (birkoff@gateway/shell/ircnow/x-vbpmjmhdxcmpnrie) has joined #techrights
[18:20]	schestowitz	XRevan86: for weeks now Meduza RSS feed (English) had not updated
[18:20]	schestowitz	same issue as a year ago
[18:20]	XRevan86	schestowitz: Oh, I've forgotten I should look into it
[18:21]	schestowitz	vZS1: let me know if I need to run something from my end
[18:22]	schestowitz	XRevan86: last time I contacted them they did not even respond
[18:22]	vZS1	schestowitz: don't think anything is required. Once I see how it goes on my Pi, I'll just log into your Pi and setup the automation
[18:23]	schestowitz	[16:20] <vZS1> Russia invests plenty of money
[18:23]	schestowitz	[16:20] <vZS1> In its plutocracy
[18:23]	schestowitz	sane in USSA
[18:23]	schestowitz	15 billion for US billionaires
[18:23]	schestowitz	and who knows how much in offshore havens
[18:23]	schestowitz	15 TRILLIONS I mean
[18:23]	schestowitz	and 27 TRILLION in national debt
[18:24]	schestowitz	with space programmes that  help funnel money into the coffers of Trump boosters like "pedo guy" Musk-Have $
[18:24]	CrystalMath	is Musk really a pedo?
[18:24]	schestowitz	no
[18:24]	schestowitz	he calls people "pedo guy"
[18:24]	schestowitz	for actually saving lives
[18:24]	schestowitz	instead of tweeting crap
[18:25]	schestowitz	he got sued for it
[18:25]	CrystalMath	who did he call that?
[18:25]	schestowitz	look that up
[18:25]	schestowitz	a diver
[18:25]	schestowitz	who saved kids trapped in a cave
[18:26]	CrystalMath	i see, reading about it
[18:26]	CrystalMath	Musk won that case
[18:27]	schestowitz	rich people get away with libel
[18:27]	schestowitz	as usuaal
[18:27]	CrystalMath	idk, it was unfair of him to say that
[18:27]	CrystalMath	but is it a crime? idk
[18:27]	CrystalMath	it just sounds like he lashed out, but why?
[18:27]	schestowitz	if musky had lost the judge would be called "pedo guy"
[18:27]	schestowitz	in a tweet
[18:28]	schestowitz	those are pretty nasty lashouts
[18:28]	schestowitz	against someone who risked his life
[18:32]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Debian 11 bullseye - Default Theme Revealed http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144366 [https://pleroma.site/objects/2c7f3d13-01aa-44a8-93ee-56191dd411ce]
[18:40]	CrystalMath	schestowitz: yeah i don't get it
[18:41]	CrystalMath	i mean i suppose there is the trick to become famous by bad publicity
[18:41]	CrystalMath	but Elon Musk was already famous
[18:41]	CrystalMath	what could he possibly hope to get?
[18:42]	vZS1	Helping kids is a thankless job
[18:42]	vZS1	When the pedos get all the credit for their "charity"
[18:46]	schestowitz	https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/10/jim-watkins-child-pornography-domains
[18:46]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.motherjones.com | QAnon Is Supposed to Be All About Protecting Kids. Its Primary Enabler Appears to Have Hosted Child Porn Domains. Mother Jones
[18:47]	CrystalMath	primary enabler?
[18:47]	CrystalMath	4chan?
[18:47]	CrystalMath	or what?
[18:48]	schestowitz	oh, don't tell me you too are into that cult
[18:48]	schestowitz	qanon/3chan
[18:48]	CrystalMath	no
[18:48]	CrystalMath	what's 3chan?
[18:48]	schestowitz	*5chan etc.
[18:48]	schestowitz	I'm mistyping
[18:48]	schestowitz	means 4chan
[18:48]	CrystalMath	i've heard of 4chan as an internet site
[18:48]	CrystalMath	i don't really go there
[18:48]	schestowitz	there's also 6
[18:48]	CrystalMath	and 2ch
[18:48]	CrystalMath	which is the best
[18:48]	CrystalMath	2ch.jp
[18:48]	CrystalMath	the original
[18:49]	CrystalMath	i'm not into qanon, in the sense that i don't believe that qanon knows any secrets
[18:49]	CrystalMath	i think it's just some ARG
[18:49]	CrystalMath	4chan is very fond of those, as is 2ch
[18:50]	CrystalMath	oh it's not 2ch.jp, it's .net
[18:52]	CrystalMath	and now it's 2ch.sc
[18:52]	CrystalMath	heh, things changed a lot
[18:52]	CrystalMath	i don't really remember my experience with the chans much
[18:52]	CrystalMath	it was a long time ago and very little
● Nov 14
[19:23]	scientes	and 7chan
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[19:31]	smnthermes	> [04:19:34] schestowitz: That's a shame, I would stop accessing it altogether if it means what I think it means
[19:31]	smnthermes	Use nitter.net
[19:31]	smnthermes	For Twitter
[19:32]	XRevan86	Russia has a good space programme: https://fontanka.ru/2020/11/13/69542566/
[19:32]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.fontanka.ru | , ! - - - - .
[19:32]	cybrNaut	there's a plugin that redirects all twtr accesses to nitter
[19:33]	XRevan86	Roscosmos will sell start selling perfume, clothes and alcoholic beverages under the brand name "Let's Go!" (Gagarin's phrase)
[19:33]	XRevan86	It's now a trademark.
[19:34]	scientes	XRevan86, did you see that the United Arab Emirates successfully launched a probe headed to mars?
[19:35]	XRevan86	scientes: Without the merch I'm not interested.
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[19:35]	scientes	Russia space program has merch?
[19:35]	scientes	cybrNaut, does it also direct twat to twitter?
[19:35]	XRevan86	scientes: Well, I don't know if this counts as merch, but pretty much
[19:35]	XRevan86	this wasn't a joke
[19:36]	XRevan86	they really will
[19:38]	cybrNaut	scientes: you lost me, but the plugin is called Privacy Redirector if you want to have a look
[19:41]	scientes	XRevan86, I wonder if you can ship uranium ore in the mail in Russia https://www.uraniumstore.com/product-page/uranium-ore-sample-456-33g
[19:41]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.uraniumstore.com | Uranium Ore Sample 456.33g 147,000 CPM | Uranium Store
[19:41]	smnthermes	Also, it's time for FSF to delete its Twitter account, since the main version requires non-free JS
[19:41]	scientes	https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52apxc_025.htm
[19:42]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-pe.usps.com | USPS Packaging Instruction 7A | Postal Explorer
[19:43]	XRevan86	scientes: I don't have experience for that.
[19:43]	XRevan86	to answer that
[19:54]	scientes	the point is that you don't need experience to do this
[19:54]	scientes	it has clear regulations
[19:55]	scientes	while something like asbestos the US regulations are nutsy
[19:58]		*scientes is reticulating splines
● Nov 14
[20:05]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Slackware-Based SlackEX Linux Now Ships with Latest Enlightenment Desktop http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144367 [https://pleroma.site/objects/496813d0-be3f-4e9c-b871-ff1313e6d254]
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[20:12]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: This week in KDE: Tons of improvements to our core apps http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144370 [https://pleroma.site/objects/a233aa49-267a-4fc9-8185-28781dbe8156]
[20:13]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144369 [https://pleroma.site/objects/029fc8ad-04ed-4588-90cb-f6fcc2f0f4eb]
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[20:37]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Todays #HowTos | #UNIX http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144371 [https://pleroma.site/objects/f41f1c01-bcd9-479f-8bc0-4ee7744350aa]
[20:42]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #SuperProductivity is an extremely powerful To Do app for Linux http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144372 [https://pleroma.site/objects/bcc9f7f2-0e95-4bd0-b459-5838a2feb68b]
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● Nov 14
[21:08]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Games: Proton, Linux App Summit 2020 and More http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144373 [https://pleroma.site/objects/a2632861-2520-4923-b1bd-5d547de0bf05]
[21:27]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Mozilla: Tor Browser, CAs and Rust Shuffling on Microsofts Servers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144374 [https://pleroma.site/objects/ff7b258e-014c-4ec0-af0c-380dd929dec9]
[21:32]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: MicroOS Is Immutable Linux http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144375 [https://pleroma.site/objects/1068543e-e332-41da-879c-37500dfbfe23]
[21:36]	schestowitz	[19:31] <smnthermes> Use nitter.net
[21:36]	schestowitz	afaik it's read-only
[21:36]	schestowitz	and so I cannot check notifications there, like replies
[21:36]	tdemin	schestowitz, oh, you crosspost to Twitter as well?
[21:37]		*obarun (~obarun@host-115-126-165-174.fibre.nautile.nc) has joined #techrights
[21:37]	schestowitz	it's expored from diaspora
[21:37]	schestowitz	since... like forever
[21:37]	schestowitz	before that it was expored from identi.ca (statusnet)
[21:37]	schestowitz	*exported
[21:37]	schestowitz	I never posted directly to twitler
● Nov 14
[22:08]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Security Leftovers http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/144376 [https://pleroma.site/objects/797ea41f-719a-406e-9dc0-23b1eeda87d7]
[22:25]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Intel Worked to Eradicate Supposedly Offensive Words From Linux While Inserting More and More Technically Offensive DRM Into Linux (Back Doors as Well) http://techrights.org/2020/11/14/intel-linux-drm/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/e8c34326-02ba-44c1-adc8-1807143b9769]
[22:45]	DaemonFC[m]	schestowitz: We'll be over 200,000 new cases per day at some point next week most likely.
[22:45]	schestowitz	congrats
[22:46]	schestowitz	https://www.commondreams.org/views/2020/11/13/fighting-pandemic-cant-wait-inauguration-day
[22:46]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.commondreams.org | Fighting the Pandemic Cant Wait for Inauguration Day | Common Dreams Views
[22:49]	schestowitz	https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2020/11/2020-11-09-Google.md
[22:49]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dmca/2020-11-09-Google.md at master github/dmca GitHub
[22:55]	DaemonFC[m]	Fuck Github.
[22:55]	XRevan86	Yea, but also: the DMCA law applies not only to Microsoft.
[22:56]	schestowitz	decenrralise
[22:56]	schestowitz	decentralise
[22:56]	schestowitz	also to platforms that exercise law differently
[22:56]	XRevan86	I don't understand when was the point crossed where even the source text is considered an evil DRM-circumventing programme.
[22:57]	XRevan86	Is it by law or is it Microsoft playing it safe?
[22:58]	schestowitz	"Free software is under attack and Microsoft is a prime facilitator of it (with its GitHub dominance)"
[22:58]	schestowitz	doing a post about this...
[22:59]	schestowitz	is Ariadne aware?
● Nov 14
[23:00]	schestowitz	we need DISTRIBUTED development
[23:00]	XRevan86	schestowitz: In this particular case, I'd word it like "Free software is under attack, and the centralised platform owned by Microsoft is a primary factor to it"
[23:00]	schestowitz	surely that much is obvious by now
[23:01]	schestowitz	I reject that working
[23:01]	schestowitz	*wording
[23:01]	schestowitz	GitHub is Microsoft
[23:01]	schestowitz	YouTube is Google
[23:01]	schestowitz	don't play along with their antitust-circumventing tricks
[23:01]	schestowitz	GitHub now IS Microsoft
[23:01]	schestowitz	100%
[23:01]	schestowitz	and it has a purpose.. to Microsoft
[23:02]	XRevan86	If I get it right, it's not as much about Microsoft and GitHub and more about this centralised platform they've cultivated making software on it an easy target.
[23:02]	schestowitz	XRevan86: how that? http://techrights.org/2020/11/14/drm-loves-centralisation/
[23:02]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | [Meme] DRM Loves Wintel/Microsoft/Centralisation/Monopoly | Techrights
[23:02]	schestowitz	XRevan86: no, that too i reject
[23:02]	schestowitz	it's how they may try to wage an excuse/defense
[23:02]	schestowitz	like they're passive victims
[23:02]	schestowitz	they know too well it was all about control all the time
[23:03]	schestowitz	and recently we see them exercising that control
[23:03]	schestowitz	while threatening actual users
[23:03]	schestowitz	not just censorsing them
[23:03]	schestowitz	also banning
[23:03]	XRevan86	schestowitz: GitLab.com also accepts DMCA takedown notices. It's the United States law after all.
[23:04]	schestowitz	GitLab sucks also
[23:04]	XRevan86	Maybe it's more about the binary code, I need to check.
[23:04]	schestowitz	f gitlab
[23:04]	schestowitz	esp. if not self-hosted
[23:04]	XRevan86	schestowitz: It's about it being a US-hosted service.
[23:04]	schestowitz	sony tried it on digg
[23:04]	schestowitz	when people posted decryption hashes
[23:04]	schestowitz	and then people reposted these endlessly
[23:05]	schestowitz	drm is a lost cause
[23:05]	schestowitz	deal with it
[23:05]	schestowitz	https://krebsonsecurity.com/2020/10/google-mending-another-crack-in-widevine/
[23:05]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-krebsonsecurity.com | Google Mending Another Crack in Widevine Krebs on Security
[23:05]	schestowitz	https://torrentfreak.com/google-takes-down-repositories-that-circumvent-its-widevine-drm-201113/
[23:05]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Google Takes Down Repositories That Circumvent its Widevine DRM * TorrentFreak
[23:06]	XRevan86	schestowitz: DRM that's broken is reduced to a "do not touch me, please" sign.
[23:07]	XRevan86	why waste processor time, just use plain text
[23:08]	schestowitz	for the image?
[23:08]	schestowitz	No
[23:09]	schestowitz	no link
[23:09]	schestowitz	no text
[23:09]	XRevan86	No, I mean on DRM
[23:09]	schestowitz	it's important to show the Github logo imho
[23:09]	CrystalMath	schestowitz: Biden's presidency is going to have to wait until at least inauguration day
[23:09]	schestowitz	which text would not convey
[23:09]	schestowitz	to show peopel the "familiar" github looks
[23:09]	XRevan86	I mean that DRM is a waste of processor time.
[23:09]	schestowitz	with the real face of GitHub
[23:09]	schestowitz	as oppression platform
[23:09]	schestowitz	not sharing platform
[23:09]		*chomwitt has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[23:09]	schestowitz	with many users "marked" for death
[23:10]	schestowitz	CrystalMath: so Trump can do to him what Bush did to Obama
[23:10]	XRevan86	> As such, it allegedly violates section 1201 of the DMCA, an allegation that was also made against the youtube-dl code last month.
[23:10]	XRevan86	One could argue that Microsoft is willing to accept bogus takedown notices which wouldn't hold in court.
[23:10]	schestowitz	crashes economy
[23:10]	schestowitz	and then blame the successor
[23:10]	schestowitz	XRevan86: that was noted before
[23:11]	schestowitz	see
[23:11]	schestowitz	or even http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/143596#comment-27143
[23:11]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.tuxmachines.org | Single Points of Failure and Proprietary Entrapment (Microsoft GitHub) | Tux Machines
[23:11]	schestowitz	many comments there
[23:11]	schestowitz	almost nobody defended microsoft
[23:11]	schestowitz	some blamed the riaa more
[23:11]	schestowitz	in this case it's gafam
[23:11]	schestowitz	with the takedown req
[23:11]	CrystalMath	schestowitz: until january, Trump is president, and the herd immunity approach (which i back 100%) lives on
[23:12]	schestowitz	lol
[23:12]	CrystalMath	i just hope enough people get infected so that the fascist alternatives become impossible
[23:12]	schestowitz	you also support culling many people
[23:12]	schestowitz	so we know what you goal is
[23:12]	CrystalMath	i'd even support culling all of them
[23:12]	schestowitz	to leverage covid for depopulation
[23:12]	CrystalMath	but covid can't do that :P
[23:12]	CrystalMath	but also, i believe in individual freedom
[23:12]	schestowitz	you are sick-minded
[23:13]	schestowitz	freedom to be killed by a president
[23:13]	CrystalMath	and i believe that the alternatives set a bad precedent
[23:13]	schestowitz	and put in body bags by the millions
[23:13]	CrystalMath	no, freedom to be killed by a virus
[23:13]	schestowitz	for "freedom"
[23:13]	CrystalMath	if i want to die from a virus, i should have that right
[23:13]	schestowitz	people who survive it will suffer also
[23:13]	schestowitz	health problems
[23:13]	DaemonFC[m]	Amazon has some warehouse deals on a Surface Laptop 3 with a Ryzen 7.
[23:13]	CrystalMath	and i don't believe in a right to not be infected, because in nature you don't get this right
[23:13]	CrystalMath	but you do have the right to be infected
[23:13]	schestowitz	you live in europe
[23:13]	schestowitz	read up on plagues that cut like a third of the population
[23:13]	DaemonFC[m]	I really don't give a shit if it's a "Microsoft" laptop, but I was wondering what Linux would do on itt.
[23:13]	schestowitz	and what it left behind it
[23:14]	CrystalMath	schestowitz: it lead to a lot of good things, such as the end of trust in religion alone
[23:14]	schestowitz	might as well go with slogans like, "Hitler did nothing wrong"
[23:14]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: You don't have the right to spread the thing.
[23:14]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: i don't spread it
[23:14]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: it copies itself
[23:14]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: and uses me as a vector
[23:14]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: it has that natural right
[23:14]	CrystalMath	as a virus
[23:14]	XRevan86	people don't kill people, bullets kill people
[23:14]	CrystalMath	there's an intent behind shooting
[23:15]	CrystalMath	but when you're infected you can not even know
[23:15]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: From you it sound like you're obligated to help it out
[23:15]	schestowitz	ok, I'll ignore the trolling
[23:15]	schestowitz	DaemonFC[m]: walmart again?
[23:15]	schestowitz	the black friday discount thing?
[23:15]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: well i choose not to do that
[23:15]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: You want to have the right to catch it unknowingly?
[23:15]	DaemonFC[m]	Amazon this time. Warehouse.
[23:15]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: right, as it's natural
[23:16]	schestowitz	DaemonFC[m]: those suck
[23:16]	DaemonFC[m]	$1499 on a Surface Laptop 3 Ryzen 7 edition with 16 GB RAM and 512 GB SSD.
[23:16]	schestowitz	we had some whistleblowers from them
[23:16]	schestowitz	almost a decade back
[23:16]	DaemonFC[m]	Small scratch on the top.
[23:16]	schestowitz	but that had little effect on anything
[23:16]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: i'm not talking about human action, but rather, human surrender to nature
[23:16]	schestowitz	people know how oppressed they aere
[23:16]	schestowitz	but people keep buying/ordering
[23:16]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: I want to have the right not to have to deal with this.
[23:16]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: file a complaint to nature
[23:16]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: put it inside your nearest tree
[23:16]	CrystalMath	see if it cares
[23:17]	CrystalMath	(hint: it doesn't)
[23:17]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: Nature doesn't care, but humans can act to protect each other from danger.
[23:17]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: humans should not do that to the extent that it hurts individual rights, and forces some people to trust other people
[23:17]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: That is perfectly natural behaviour for creatures like humans.
[23:17]	CrystalMath	we're not all one organism, we're separate organisms
[23:17]	CrystalMath	we compete against each other as much as we cooperate
[23:17]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: So you're against the nature of humanity?
[23:18]	CrystalMath	the victory of one is not the victory of all
[23:18]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: A lone human is a dead human.
[23:18]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: individual humans are separate organisms and it is natural for them to fight against others
[23:18]	CrystalMath	and compete
[23:19]	CrystalMath	i believe in fostering this individuality
[23:19]	CrystalMath	and competition
[23:19]	CrystalMath	against cooperation
[23:19]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: If humans were to "surrender to nature" as you so desire, humans would not have existed.
[23:19]	schestowitz	you also believe in unabomber's writings
[23:19]	CrystalMath	of course we would, we would still evolve
[23:19]	schestowitz	DaemonFC[m]: that's vastly too expensive
[23:19]	XRevan86	being self-defeatist but at the same time selfish is a combination that only CrystalMath can come up with
[23:19]	schestowitz	it costs more than all our PCs combined
[23:20]	schestowitz	and doesn't even have much storage
[23:20]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: well it's kinda interesting, but yeah, i believe in ruthless competition even if that means i am defeated and killed
[23:20]	DaemonFC[m]	I have 512 GB on this one.
[23:20]	DaemonFC[m]	More on external though.
[23:20]	schestowitz	for $1499 you can get an old CAR
[23:20]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: because i don't want to compete and win, but rather, i believe in competition as good by itself
[23:20]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: Which is an unnatural to a human sentiment %)
[23:21]	kingoffrance	yeah thats about how much my old mustang cost lol
[23:21]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: just because it would hurt me, doesn't mean that it's wrong
[23:21]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: Don't speak for us humans, Mr. Reptiloid :D
[23:21]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: maybe it's alright for the world to go wild and start killing each other, and then killing me in the process
[23:21]	CrystalMath	i'm probably very easy to kill
[23:21]	XRevan86	we know what we want better than you do
[23:21]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: i disagree, competition is in human nature as much as cooperation
[23:21]	DaemonFC[m]	https://system76.com/laptops/lemur
[23:21]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Lemur Pro - System76
[23:21]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: i know that both must exist
[23:22]	DaemonFC[m]	These run Coreboot firmware.
[23:22]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: but i'm focusing on the competition part
[23:22]	DaemonFC[m]	That's a plus.
[23:22]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: So much so that you reject the cooperation part.
[23:22]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: but i know it will exist
[23:22]	schestowitz	DaemonFC[m]: you filed for bankruptcy months ago
[23:22]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: i just want to stop fascism and control
[23:22]	schestowitz	and yet learned nothing from it
[23:22]	schestowitz	Mandy can lose the job any time...
[23:22]	schestowitz	Walmart fires in the UK
[23:22]	schestowitz	thousands this month
[23:22]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: it's kind of like the idea to be an extremist in order to achieve the middle ground, because others are also extremists
[23:22]	DaemonFC[m]	I've recovered, and the disaster had nothing to do with a laptop.
[23:22]	schestowitz	6500 IIRC
[23:22]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: Why? Don't you want it to compete with other forms of governance?
[23:23]	schestowitz	Sannsburys their franchise
[23:23]	schestowitz	and in US there's another lockdown coming
[23:23]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: there won't be any other forms of governance the way we're going :(
[23:23]	DaemonFC[m]	<schestowitz "Mandy can lose the job any time."> Highly unlikely.
[23:23]	DaemonFC[m]	The Governor is seeing to that.
[23:23]	schestowitz	and you blasted lots of money on nonessential Microsoft crap
[23:23]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: Then it outcompeted everything else, what's there not to like
[23:23]	DaemonFC[m]	Shutting down anything not "essential" enough again.
[23:23]	schestowitz	DaemonFC[m]: you trust politicians now?
[23:23]	DaemonFC[m]	Means huge business surge for Walmart again.
[23:23]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: well okay, but i will kill myself in that case
[23:23]	schestowitz	people buy less, and less expensive items
[23:23]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: Do you want to help an underdog? That's so not in the spirit of competition.
[23:23]	schestowitz	they don't buy high margin goods
[23:24]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: so i better fight all i can for freedom
[23:24]	schestowitz	Walmart will fire loads
[23:24]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: i refuse to live in a fascist world
[23:24]	schestowitz	people don't build a home from rice
[23:24]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: so i can die fighting to stop it
[23:24]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: There's one extremely simple rule of thumb: one's freedom ends when another's freedom begins.
[23:24]	DaemonFC[m]	That's actually not what I'm seeing here.
[23:24]	DaemonFC[m]	People are in Walmart spending a ton of money.
[23:24]	DaemonFC[m]	Sales at this store have never been better.
[23:24]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: it's actually anything but simple
[23:25]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: that rule can be understood in extremely fascist and also extremely libertarian ways
[23:25]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: That is true.
[23:25]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: even pertaining to things like personal property, i can understand it in two ways
[23:25]	XRevan86	However, it's also why you can't just want to kill people. They don't want to die, you know.
[23:26]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: perhaps it works at least to the exclusion of murder
[23:26]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: but it doesn't really prevent stealing
[23:26]	DaemonFC[m]	schestowitz: The economy is not doing terrifically well, but people are still people.
[23:26]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: which is also wrong
[23:26]	DaemonFC[m]	Many of them don't even want to work, so they either won't or they'll get a job at Walmart and fuck around until they get fired.
[23:27]	DaemonFC[m]	They axed people in the grocery area recently for playing on their iPhones and one of them showed up drunk.
[23:27]	schestowitz	anyway, let's wait and see
[23:27]	schestowitz	sounds like you spent irrationally
[23:27]	schestowitz	instead of food
[23:27]	schestowitz	you already rent and live on moderate means
[23:28]	schestowitz	with eviction crisis coming
[23:28]	DaemonFC[m]	Not really.
[23:28]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: which is why i prefer an alternative rule - "coercion may not be initiated against a person or the property of a person who does not initiate coercion themself"
[23:28]	schestowitz	whatever
[23:28]	DaemonFC[m]	That's for people who are behind on their rent.
[23:28]	schestowitz	as you might be
[23:28]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: this rule is more carefully crafted
[23:28]	DaemonFC[m]	Not with months paid in advance.
[23:28]	schestowitz	if your husband loses the job
[23:28]	schestowitz	Walmart UK fired 6,500 a week or so ago
[23:28]	schestowitz	as we entered another lockdown
[23:28]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: however, it disallows a lot of what we do today, like taxation without explicitly stating what the taxes will be used for
[23:28]	DaemonFC[m]	schestowitz: I'll be around when it's Cher and the cockroaches, you know.
[23:29]	schestowitz	they are firing but not disclosing it proudly
[23:29]	DaemonFC[m]	I figure things out.
[23:29]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: Very Communist, I like it.
[23:29]	schestowitz	DaemonFC[m]: you did...
[23:29]	schestowitz	and you got suicidal
[23:29]	schestowitz	and files bankruptcy
[23:29]	schestowitz	so the last time around you barely made it
[23:29]	DaemonFC[m]	Yeah, but that's the past.
[23:29]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: how is it communist?
[23:29]	schestowitz	and managed to get a pardon on massive loans you could not feasibly keep up with
[23:29]	DaemonFC[m]	John lost. The state lost.
[23:30]	schestowitz	whatever
[23:30]	schestowitz	short-sighted
[23:30]	DaemonFC[m]	The prosecutor is not going to be the prosecutor anymore in two weeks.
[23:30]	schestowitz	we'll talk about it after the US economy collapses again
[23:30]	schestowitz	the real economy
[23:30]	DaemonFC[m]	The jury came back with an unfortunate verdict for him.
[23:30]	schestowitz	not Wall Street
[23:30]	DaemonFC[m]	I participated.
[23:30]	schestowitz	Wall Street is not "the economy"
[23:30]	DaemonFC[m]	I think Biden will triangulate better than Trump.
[23:31]	schestowitz	my main laptop cost 200 pounds
[23:31]	XRevan86	CrystalMath: Because instead of sanctity of property you recognise that there is a kind of property that restricts other people.
[23:31]	schestowitz	it has 8gb of ram and a good 4-core processor
[23:31]	DaemonFC[m]	The math only requires 2/52 Republicans to pass some kind of a bill.
[23:31]	DaemonFC[m]	And I'm seeing 3 or 4 at least.
[23:31]	schestowitz	that extra grand you wasted could buy you food and 2 months' rent
[23:31]	schestowitz	which you might need later
[23:32]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: yes but the minimum of such things
[23:32]	DaemonFC[m]	There will be a stimulus bill of some kind next year.
[23:32]	DaemonFC[m]	The Democrats have leverage and the upper hand now in the negotiations.
[23:32]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: so while the principle wouldn't allow someone to keep slaves, or buy property all around someone to lock them inside, it's still libertarian
[23:32]	DaemonFC[m]	Remember, the Republicans are down at least one Senate seat, and Trump won't be there to waffle on what he'd even agree to in the first place.
[23:32]	DaemonFC[m]	So there will be something.
[23:32]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: it's basically what John Locke said
[23:33]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: i wouldn't call it communist i would just call it liberal
[23:34]	DaemonFC[m]	Maybe schestowitz is right though. Maybe I should just keep the powder dry and run this thing into the ground first.
[23:34]	DaemonFC[m]	The longer I wait, the more models go by and the bigger the upgrade will be eventually.
[23:35]	DaemonFC[m]	It took a long time for even the cheap Walmart laptops to have a FHD screen, oddly.
[23:36]	DaemonFC[m]	This CPU is struggling a lot with HEVC decode I noticed.
[23:36]	CrystalMath	XRevan86: and fascism doesn't respect any part of it
[23:36]	DaemonFC[m]	I wonder if there's anything to be done about that.
[23:36]	DaemonFC[m]	schestowitz: OpenVPN was a significant drag too.
[23:37]	DaemonFC[m]	3-4% for the binary while network activity was running.
[23:37]	DaemonFC[m]	I was looking at overall CPU use with Wireguard and it's much better. Probably a lot of that is being a kernel module.
[23:38]		*davisr_ (~davisr@cpe-70-92-166-130.wi.res.rr.com) has joined #techrights
[23:40]	DaemonFC[m]	schestowitz: Mom did manage to help me save some stuff from before.
[23:40]	DaemonFC[m]	At least I got my nice new stereo, my TV, my vacuum, some lamps. I mean so it's several hundred I didn't have to spend all over again.
[23:41]		*davisr__ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[23:43]	schestowitz	[23:34] <DaemonFC[m]> Maybe schestowitz is right though. Maybe I should just keep the powder dry and run this thing into the ground first.
[23:43]	schestowitz	said "MARISOL"
[23:44]	smnthermes	> [20:03:56] XRevan86: schestowitz: GitLab.com also accepts DMCA takedown notices. It's the United States law after all.
[23:44]	smnthermes	But other countries might accept takedown requests
[23:45]	XRevan86	smnthermes: Maybe. But the core of the problem is still the US law.
[23:45]	CrystalMath	https://gitlab.com/dstftw/youtube-dl
[23:45]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Sergey M. / youtube-dl GitLab
[23:45]	XRevan86	And, as we all know, this is equivalent to the Earth law.
[23:45]	CrystalMath	this is youtube-dl now
[23:46]	schestowitz	DMCA is US law
[23:46]	MinceR	finally
[23:46]	MinceR	DMCA is an implementation of the WIPO Copyright Treaty
[23:46]	schestowitz	but they are basing it on a centralised us company
[23:46]	schestowitz	still doingItWrong(TM)
[23:46]	schestowitz	not self-hosting
[23:47]	schestowitz	not outside BidenRIAALand
[23:47]	schestowitz	so they put another target on themselves, in the neighbour next door
[23:49]		*zjmc_ (~jmc@139.28.218.235) has joined #techrights
[23:50]	schestowitz	zemlin, jim, master of ceremony
[23:52]		-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: [Meme] DRM Loves Wintel/Microsoft/Centralisation/Monopoly http://techrights.org/2020/11/14/drm-loves-centralisation/ [https://pleroma.site/objects/26c6ad73-6556-426f-9ad9-c0a95d3a42d2]
[23:57]	schestowitz	DaemonFC[m]: https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/11/13/really-really-big-deal-michigan-gov-moves-shut-down-line-5-pipeline-protect-great
[23:57]		-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.commondreams.org | 'This Is a Really, Really Big Deal': Michigan Gov. Moves to Shut Down Line 5 Pipeline to Protect Great Lakes | Common Dreams News
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