[2021-06-08T00:20:22Z] <acheam> Leave you're muscle memory at the door
[2021-06-08T00:20:30Z] <acheam> but hey, its all configurable
[2021-06-08T00:20:45Z] <acheam> I might make a config file that makes the keybindings more traditional
[2021-06-08T00:20:52Z] <acheam> and include it in contrib/
[2021-06-08T00:35:32Z] <midfavila-laptop> god, I'm fucking melting, guys
[2021-06-08T00:35:43Z] <midfavila-laptop> it's over 30C in my city today, humidity is in the 70s
[2021-06-08T00:53:48Z] <noocsharp> :>
[2021-06-08T00:53:54Z] <noocsharp> same here except humidity in the 80s
[2021-06-08T00:54:39Z] <noocsharp> a nice summer day
[2021-06-08T00:59:46Z] <riteo> huh, am I the only one not really feeling like I'm melting?
[2021-06-08T01:00:05Z] <riteo> I mean, I got some pretty heavy clothes on and I'm not sweating that much
[2021-06-08T01:01:05Z] <riteo> anyways gtg to sleep, bye guys, cya!
[2021-06-08T03:17:53Z] <testuser[m]1> Hi
[2021-06-08T03:19:15Z] <noocsharp> howdy
[2021-06-08T03:21:39Z] <acheam> hey testuser[m]1
[2021-06-08T03:22:13Z] <testuser[m]1> midfavila-laptop you can just copy libz.so to /tmp/libs/zstd.so and add /tmp/libs to ld_library_path to get a working gcc
[2021-06-08T03:22:21Z] <testuser[m]1> With the proper soname ofcourse
[2021-06-08T03:26:37Z] <acheam> ugh this website gives you a 500 error if you have fetches disabled
[2021-06-08T04:39:18Z] <noocsharp> was there an update to webkitgtk sometime recently that made it actually usable?
[2021-06-08T04:39:46Z] <noocsharp> i downloaded lariza and i could load the heaviest website i ever have to deal with
[2021-06-08T04:41:39Z] <testuser[m]1> yeah
[2021-06-08T04:41:48Z] <testuser[m]1> its fixed now
[2021-06-08T04:41:58Z] <testuser[m]1> thanks to q66
[2021-06-08T04:43:10Z] <noocsharp> was it like a kiss specific thing or upstream?
[2021-06-08T04:44:28Z] <testuser[m]1> upstream
[2021-06-08T04:45:37Z] <noocsharp> yay, now i have a choice between 3 usable browser engines
[2021-06-08T04:47:32Z] <acheam> it sounds like your not counting curl | sed
[2021-06-08T04:49:54Z] <acheam> opera I'm begging you to make presto open sourcr
[2021-06-08T04:50:01Z] <acheam> like, what do you have to lose
[2021-06-08T04:50:46Z] <acheam> I mean, the source is already leaked
[2021-06-08T04:50:58Z] <noocsharp> what? i was referring to webkit, curl | sed and trident of course
[2021-06-08T04:51:14Z] <acheam> *gasp* he uses proprietary browsers
[2021-06-08T04:51:15Z] <testuser[m]1> whats trident
[2021-06-08T04:51:21Z] <acheam> internet explorer
[2021-06-08T04:51:31Z] <testuser[m]1> oh
[2021-06-08T04:52:31Z] <noocsharp> i had to look it up lol
[2021-06-08T04:53:18Z] <acheam> I only knew because I have the Wikipedia page "Comparison of browser engines99,99" open
[2021-06-08T04:53:57Z] <necromansy> gotta love the situation in which thats not uncommon
[2021-06-08T04:54:07Z] <necromansy> ive had that page open at least 5 times
[2021-06-08T04:54:19Z] <noocsharp> webkit's kinda cheating on the iOS column
[2021-06-08T04:54:34Z] <necromansy> also unrelated but my first paper manuscript got accepted
[2021-06-08T04:54:45Z] <testuser[m]1> nice
[2021-06-08T04:54:58Z] <noocsharp> congrats
[2021-06-08T04:55:09Z] <necromansy> tyty
[2021-06-08T04:55:12Z] <acheam> hooray
[2021-06-08T04:59:50Z] <noocsharp> testuser[m]1: out of curiosity, do you know why webkit used to be so broken?
[2021-06-08T05:01:33Z] <acheam> I always type Netscape instead of netsurf lol
[2021-06-08T05:05:23Z] <testuser[m]1> noocsharp it was related to them not accounting for musl's stack size stuff
[2021-06-08T05:06:29Z] <testuser[m]1> and some ifdef guards for glibc stuff
[2021-06-08T05:06:50Z] <schillingklaus> qtwebkit or webkit2-gtk?
[2021-06-08T05:13:59Z] <acheam> gtk
[2021-06-08T05:15:11Z] <acheam> https://github.com/kiss-community/community/commit/afc0e5f92e0303a6a2654e616980cab33558416a#diff-90c21d2c1d1fa3ab75dd6c81f17a26297db873be58f6c7691b94c9883ad95574
[2021-06-08T05:20:51Z] <noocsharp> interesting
[2021-06-08T05:27:36Z] <acheam> https://nitter.fdn.fr/octaforge/status/1388170524950507520?s=20
[2021-06-08T07:17:33Z] <riteo> hiii!
[2021-06-08T07:17:50Z] <testuser[m]1> Hi riteo
[2021-06-08T07:46:35Z] <riteo> ok I think I got a way of avoiding a lot of dependencies for nvidia's package
[2021-06-08T07:46:49Z] <riteo> although it might depend on a custom fork of gcompat
[2021-06-08T07:52:55Z] <dilyn> before I go to bed, skimming logs:
[2021-06-08T07:53:31Z] <dilyn> the skinny on things like pkgconf (and linux-headers) is that they should be specified if they're required. If you don't need them, don't specify them.
[2021-06-08T07:54:15Z] <dilyn> Dylan's point about uneeded deps (https://k1sslinux.org/wiki/kiss/style-guide#1201) is, I think, optional dependencies (or erroneous dependencies)
[2021-06-08T07:54:35Z] <testuser[m]1> riteo wdym avoid dependencies here ?
[2021-06-08T07:55:09Z] <dilyn> if you find that a package requires linux-headers, pkgconf, etc. to build, make an issue/ping the maintainer/etc etc. dylan had an effort (as pointed out earlier) to make these *implicit* deps explicit
[2021-06-08T07:55:33Z] <dilyn> that pursuit continues today (there are several packages in community which require linux-headers but don't specify it, for instance)
[2021-06-08T07:59:15Z] <dilyn> pkgconf is distinct from the likes of make/gcc/musl/binutils because one is a toolchain and the other is a (lazy?) way for programmers to identify that lib requirements are satisfied at configure time (and specify all the right libs at build time)
[2021-06-08T07:59:40Z] <dilyn> as such, make et al (along with git, curl) are *assumed*, because they are... well, KISS
[2021-06-08T08:00:29Z] <dilyn> linux-headers is weird because it's a fundamental feature of Linux, but isn't required at runtime for anything. but it roughly slots in with pkgconf because all it does is provide headers, not actual tools
[2021-06-08T08:00:42Z] <riteo> testuser: At first I planned to make people run the installer manually or through part of the package installation process, but it requires a lot of stuff which was already there on adélie, my testing platform (for instance their ldconfig wrapper script which I don't know how to properly credit as it has no licence stated anywhere if not on the package), but I think that I'll install it on a debian
[2021-06-08T08:00:48Z] <riteo> chroot with fswatch and copy the respective files there
[2021-06-08T08:00:55Z] <dilyn> if I missed anything in that clarification, ping me :)
[2021-06-08T08:01:29Z] <riteo> I'm reading just now
[2021-06-08T08:02:36Z] <testuser[m]1> You mean the nvidia driver installer ?
[2021-06-08T08:02:38Z] <riteo> dilyn: mh, I think that we should at least make a list of all the implicit packages, because it stays quite vague, expecially at slightly more complex ones
[2021-06-08T08:02:41Z] <riteo> yes testuser[m]1
[2021-06-08T08:03:07Z] <dilyn> wdym?
[2021-06-08T08:03:19Z] <dilyn> I feel like such a thing is written somewhere
[2021-06-08T08:03:27Z] <dilyn> though it might just be something dylan said in IRC long, long ago
[2021-06-08T08:03:42Z] <riteo> probably, since the style guide has similar vague affirmations
[2021-06-08T08:04:40Z] <riteo> by the sound of it they're probably like 5, but having a list of packages that are implicit or not to point at would really avoid useless conversations on what's implicit and not
[2021-06-08T08:04:57Z] <dilyn> most things in core can be assumed. I'll check real quick
[2021-06-08T08:07:04Z] <dilyn> you can assume: binutils, curl, gcc, git, make, musl. you should specify: bzip2, gzip, xz, zlib - even though they are basically mandatory in most situations.
[2021-06-08T08:07:29Z] <dilyn> you need not specify init or grub; those are just 'defaults' provided for a *core* system
[2021-06-08T08:07:49Z] <dilyn> bison/flex/m4/libressl should always be specified
[2021-06-08T08:09:30Z] <dilyn> essentially, anything required by `kiss` or to properly configure && build a package (that is to say, `kiss` assumes git, busybox (utils), curl, and a toolchain) can be assumed
[2021-06-08T08:10:08Z] <dilyn> this could probably be disambiguated, somewhere :)
[2021-06-08T08:10:38Z] <riteo> yeah I agree
[2021-06-08T08:11:07Z] <dilyn> probably in Package System [3.0], would be the best way I think...
[2021-06-08T08:11:10Z] <riteo> wait, wasn't the rule to prefer $CC?
[2021-06-08T08:11:20Z] <riteo> oh yeah we're talking about deps right
[2021-06-08T08:11:34Z] <dilyn> yeah we prefer CC which is why we only assume a toolchain
[2021-06-08T08:11:36Z] <dilyn> :)
[2021-06-08T08:12:27Z] <riteo> is it against the distro scope to make it easier for flavors too?
[2021-06-08T08:12:36Z] <dilyn> depends files should never simply be copy-pasted from /var/db/kiss/installed/foo/depends, because it will include things like `gcc` (when it probably doesn't), and miss every make dep. so identifying deps is probably the most involved part of making a package
[2021-06-08T08:12:53Z] <dilyn> I wouldn't call it out of scope, just... uneccessary, I think?
[2021-06-08T08:13:26Z] <dilyn> I mean, it's a source based distro. Any sufficiently competent toolchain would work. We should assume if someone only has tcc and some obscure ar, they know their limits lmao
[2021-06-08T08:14:01Z] <dilyn> or what I think I misunderstood partially
[2021-06-08T08:14:01Z] <riteo> Well, dylan implied that if it wasn't that hard to do that the distro should "account" for other stuff like arch ports
[2021-06-08T08:14:11Z] <riteo> at least IIRC
[2021-06-08T08:14:23Z] <dilyn> hm, you'd have to job my memory on that
[2021-06-08T08:14:37Z] <riteo> wait, lemme see if I find something on kiss' blog
[2021-06-08T08:16:10Z] <riteo> I think I read it there
[2021-06-08T08:17:57Z] <riteo> I can't find it, at least quickly
[2021-06-08T08:18:13Z] <riteo> that's pretty annoying
[2021-06-08T08:19:49Z] <riteo> aaaaaaah I read it somewhere I'm sure
[2021-06-08T08:20:21Z] <dilyn> a big issue is how frequently information came and went from the (now 3) domains KISS has lived on
[2021-06-08T08:20:40Z] <dilyn> what with IRC, websites, and GitHub, a lot of things have been said.
[2021-06-08T08:20:55Z] <dilyn> It's like building a Bible with how disparate and difficult to find all of these accounts are :v
[2021-06-08T08:21:41Z] <riteo> iirc it was like on an announcement page, or was there a "community" one?
[2021-06-08T08:22:09Z] <testuser[m]1> news ?
[2021-06-08T08:22:42Z] <riteo> it was something along the lines of "although these ports aren't supported, KISS should help them when possible" but I can't find any proof
[2021-06-08T08:22:48Z] <riteo> testuser[m]1: I'll look there
[2021-06-08T08:23:07Z] <dilyn> ah, yes that
[2021-06-08T08:23:16Z] <dilyn> that was specifically related to aarch64 etc
[2021-06-08T08:23:31Z] <dilyn> so... yes
[2021-06-08T08:23:45Z] <dilyn> he said that we shouldn't make it hard to do. which I agree with
[2021-06-08T08:24:19Z] <riteo> welp I can't find it, but I guess two people remembering something is better than one
[2021-06-08T08:24:36Z] <dilyn> so if i'm remembering right (jesus it's been a long day), this circles back to your earlier point; yeah we don't specify toolchain bits because it just makes ports more tedious, isn't necessary, and anyone who would be bothered by it missing should know enough to realize it :v
[2021-06-08T08:25:08Z] <dilyn> yeah that section was entirely removed, a little while ago. by me, I believe -- relating to being out of date and not being properly maintained
[2021-06-08T08:25:27Z] <dilyn> the concept of that section was migrated to the 'kiss universe' section of the install guide and $/awesome-kiss
[2021-06-08T08:26:34Z] <dilyn> and with all that wisdom, I leave you for the evening! tomorrow I will be... less busy with life
[2021-06-08T08:52:32Z] <riteo> bye!
[2021-06-08T10:14:54Z] <riteo> why's the whole web giving me a 503 error with "guru meditation:" written on it?
[2021-06-08T10:15:13Z] <riteo> is cloudfare down?
[2021-06-08T10:15:46Z] <riteo> looks like it
[2021-06-08T10:16:35Z] <riteo> fyi it looks like they're doing some maintenance, so expect the whole web to crumble for a while ig
[2021-06-08T10:19:32Z] <root___> Github user content is down, do we have any mirrors for repo-bin?
[2021-06-08T10:21:10Z] <testuser[m]1> only the git repo is mirrored, not release
[2021-06-08T10:21:13Z] <testuser[m]1> which bin do you need ?
[2021-06-08T10:21:58Z] <root___> firefox 88.0.1
[2021-06-08T10:22:54Z] <testuser[m]1> i have 89 locally
[2021-06-08T10:23:42Z] <root___> It will work until github goes back up
[2021-06-08T10:26:31Z] <root___> could you upload it to some file sharing site?
[2021-06-08T10:27:10Z] <testuser[m]1> wait
[2021-06-08T10:27:50Z] <root___> Actually you don't have to
[2021-06-08T10:28:09Z] <root___> I found the tarball in my backups
[2021-06-08T10:28:14Z] <testuser[m]1> lol
[2021-06-08T10:28:17Z] <root___> Sorry to bother you
[2021-06-08T10:28:25Z] <testuser[m]1> itsfine
[2021-06-08T10:28:39Z] <schillingklaus> bothering dilyn would have been worse
[2021-06-08T10:28:48Z] <testuser[m]1> is crimeflare down or shithub ?
[2021-06-08T10:29:19Z] <root___> idk but i have heard that it is crimeflare
[2021-06-08T10:29:29Z] <riteo> I guess cloadfare
[2021-06-08T10:29:35Z] <riteo> cloudfare
[2021-06-08T10:29:38Z] <root___> github itself works fine
[2021-06-08T10:29:40Z] <riteo> they're doing some maintenance
[2021-06-08T10:29:59Z] <root___> Just content downloads don't
[2021-06-08T10:30:06Z] <testuser[m]1> centralization moment
[2021-06-08T10:30:08Z] <riteo> basically half the web's now down
[2021-06-08T10:30:34Z] <schillingklaus> why is half the web down?
[2021-06-08T10:30:45Z] <testuser[m]1> cuz they all depend on crimeflare[1;7C
[2021-06-08T10:30:51Z] <riteo> cloudfare's is doing some planned maintenance
[2021-06-08T10:30:58Z] <riteo> cloudfare is is doing
[2021-06-08T10:31:08Z] <schillingklaus> I boycott all cloudflare based sites
[2021-06-08T10:31:39Z] <riteo> obviously the web had to crumble right as I need a lot of q&a sites
[2021-06-08T10:32:38Z] <root___> Also in the moment i was rolling back my firefox upgrade
[2021-06-08T10:32:55Z] <testuser[m]1> oh fastly is dead too
[2021-06-08T10:33:03Z] <root___> Speaking of firefox
[2021-06-08T10:33:10Z] <riteo> cross-domain page dependencies were a mistake
[2021-06-08T10:33:21Z] <testuser[m]1> web was  a mistake
[2021-06-08T10:33:23Z] <root___> Has anyone else had really bad performance problems with 89.0
[2021-06-08T10:33:29Z] <schillingklaus> firefox went down the sewer lid already 5 years ago or so, when moving to quantum
[2021-06-08T10:33:32Z] <testuser[m]1> perf has always been garbage
[2021-06-08T10:33:39Z] <riteo> root___: haven't updated yet
[2021-06-08T10:33:40Z] <testuser[m]1> what do u mean specifically ?
[2021-06-08T10:33:51Z] <root___> Everything is 10x slower
[2021-06-08T10:34:01Z] <root___> Even just starting the browser
[2021-06-08T10:34:03Z] <testuser[m]1> compared to chromium it feels so sluggish, just switched to ff few days back to give it another shot
[2021-06-08T10:34:13Z] <testuser[m]1> hmm i dont think it got any slower than before
[2021-06-08T10:34:17Z] <testuser[m]1> in my usage
[2021-06-08T10:34:37Z] <root___> I saw some people on reddit say that it is a weird bug for people using xorg
[2021-06-08T10:35:33Z] <testuser[m]1> oh, im on ayyland
[2021-06-08T10:35:41Z] <root___> Apparently it is actually faster on all other platforms
[2021-06-08T10:35:44Z] <root___> But idk
[2021-06-08T10:36:09Z] <schillingklaus> while xorg is full of unintentional bugs, wayland is deliberately useless
[2021-06-08T10:39:53Z] <root___> Just installed ff 88 back and i can say that performance problems are gone
[2021-06-08T10:40:07Z] <root___> Youtube loads in seconds instead of minutes
[2021-06-08T10:40:20Z] <root___> I really hope they fix this
[2021-06-08T10:40:40Z] <testuser[m]1> root___ are you using webrender ? maybe try disabling it
[2021-06-08T10:41:16Z] <root___> I tried, it made no difference
[2021-06-08T10:41:47Z] <testuser[m]1> turned off proton too ?
[2021-06-08T10:41:52Z] <root___> yes
[2021-06-08T10:42:00Z] <testuser[m]1> oof
[2021-06-08T10:42:39Z] <root___> I mean i did get a bit of performance back, i think, i actually did get to see yt loading
[2021-06-08T10:42:57Z] <root___> But still it is a giant downgrade compared to 88
[2021-06-08T10:43:22Z] <testuser[m]1> may i suggest links
[2021-06-08T10:43:24Z] <testuser[m]1> 2
[2021-06-08T10:43:33Z] <root___> Really unusable, especially on low end hardware
[2021-06-08T10:44:42Z] <root___> I have tried using links as my main browser and it was a fine browser
[2021-06-08T10:44:50Z] <root___> Web sites were the problem
[2021-06-08T10:47:39Z] <root___> web app built on a framework which is built on a framework which is made with an awful interpreted language which was jammed into a rendering engine for displaying formated text documents
[2021-06-08T10:47:54Z] <root___> ...
[2021-06-08T10:55:54Z] <riteo> swallow the geminipill
[2021-06-08T10:56:56Z] <root___> I have heard of it, but i will have to look into it some more
[2021-06-08T14:32:50Z] <morphling> hello folks
[2021-06-08T14:33:40Z] <morphling> anyone had success using dm.mod-create for full disk encryption?
[2021-06-08T14:49:23Z] <illiliti> the partition must be formatted using DM-plain type
[2021-06-08T14:49:27Z] <illiliti> dm.mod-create can't be used with LUKS1/LUKS2
[2021-06-08T14:50:15Z] <illiliti> but i wouldn't recommend using dm.mod-create and DM-plain format
[2021-06-08T14:51:08Z] <illiliti> you can achieve plausible deniability by using LUKS1/LUKS2 + detached header
[2021-06-08T14:54:15Z] <morphling> illiliti: how do you do that?
[2021-06-08T14:54:26Z] <morphling> I was considering using grub to unlock the encrypted partition
[2021-06-08T14:54:52Z] <morphling> but if I want to have multiple partitions locked instead of just root (swap maybe?), I'd have to use lvm2
[2021-06-08T14:57:34Z] <illiliti> i don't use grub nor dm.mod-create. i use tinyramfs+luks+detached header
[2021-06-08T14:58:41Z] <illiliti> dm.mod-create forces you to expose your master key on kernel command line
[2021-06-08T14:59:01Z] <illiliti> so basically any app can access it via /proc/cmdline
[2021-06-08T14:59:25Z] <morphling> yeah well, I didn't really like that
[2021-06-08T14:59:29Z] <morphling> just looked up tinyramfs
[2021-06-08T14:59:31Z] <morphling> looks neat
[2021-06-08T14:59:35Z] <morphling> you wrote it too :)
[2021-06-08T14:59:37Z] <morphling> lmao
[2021-06-08T14:59:54Z] <illiliti> another way to store master key is directory embedding it into kernel
[2021-06-08T15:00:03Z] <illiliti> but this is insecure too
[2021-06-08T15:00:28Z] <illiliti> because anyone who have read access to kernel image can fetch your key
[2021-06-08T15:02:15Z] <schillingklaus> tinyramfs does noty require an udev imprle
[2021-06-08T15:02:33Z] <schillingklaus> udev implementation, does it?
[2021-06-08T15:03:06Z] <illiliti> tinyramfs doesn't require udev, unlike dracut/mkinitramfs
[2021-06-08T15:03:17Z] <morphling> how does detached header work? do you just extract the LUKS header into a usb drive and wipe it from the main drive?
[2021-06-08T15:04:43Z] <illiliti> yep
[2021-06-08T15:06:06Z] <illiliti> tinyramfs doesn't even require device manager to operate. the only things you need are switch_root, mount, cpio and POSIX coreutils
[2021-06-08T15:06:23Z] <illiliti> device manager required to populate /dev/disk/* though
[2021-06-08T15:07:13Z] <illiliti> in-kernel CONFIG_UEVENT_HELPER can be used to do that if you don't have device manager
[2021-06-08T15:10:32Z] <illiliti> i would recommend using dm.mod-create for embedded devices because it simpler and consuming less memory. emdedded devices are usually highly isolated from external access, so exposing master key to /proc/cmdline is not big problem
[2021-06-08T15:14:29Z] <illiliti> dilyn: libudev-zero 0.5.0 is out. repology still shows 0.4.8 as latest ...
[2021-06-08T15:22:51Z] <testuser[m]1> Repology is dead
[2021-06-08T15:22:58Z] <testuser[m]1> s/is/Seems to be
[2021-06-08T15:23:02Z] <testuser[m]1> For kiss repos atleast
[2021-06-08T15:23:37Z] <illiliti> oh ok
[2021-06-08T15:23:39Z] <illiliti> thanks
[2021-06-08T15:23:47Z] <illiliti> didn't know
[2021-06-08T16:18:13Z] <dilyn> are we... certain, it's wrong?
[2021-06-08T16:18:20Z] <dilyn> because it... doesn't look wrong...
[2021-06-08T16:19:16Z] <testuser[m]1> Oh it got fixed now
[2021-06-08T16:19:23Z] <dilyn> lmao
[2021-06-08T16:19:34Z] <dilyn> schrodinger's repology
[2021-06-08T16:26:22Z] <acheam> dilyn: bruh go to sleep
[2021-06-08T16:26:29Z] <dilyn> I did!
[2021-06-08T16:26:31Z] <dilyn> just woke up
[2021-06-08T16:26:34Z] <dilyn> it's noon lad
[2021-06-08T16:26:57Z] <dilyn> nevermind the fact that i stayed up until 4am :v
[2021-06-08T16:26:58Z] <acheam> 4am Is too early for kiss
[2021-06-08T16:27:03Z] <midfavila> >only 4am
[2021-06-08T16:27:08Z] <riteo> lmao
[2021-06-08T16:27:16Z] <midfavila> imagine not staying up until six AM troubleshooting zstd bullshit
[2021-06-08T16:27:30Z] <dilyn> i've gotten better at troubleshooting I guess
[2021-06-08T16:27:38Z] <midfavila> rude
[2021-06-08T16:27:43Z] <riteo> imagine not staying up until 6 AM to talk about obscure hardware with mid
[2021-06-08T16:28:54Z] <midfavila> hmm. that reminds me, I need to get around to adding pages to my site about some of my hardware...
[2021-06-08T16:29:14Z] <riteo> Will you put pictures too?
[2021-06-08T16:29:20Z] <midfavila> yeah
[2021-06-08T16:29:24Z] <riteo> I'd love that
[2021-06-08T16:29:39Z] <midfavila> if and when I get around to it, I intend to add reviews, disassembly and maintenance instructions, manuals, etc
[2021-06-08T16:29:52Z] <midfavila> as much for other people's benefit as mine, honestly
[2021-06-08T16:30:20Z] <riteo> Oh it'd be great for when I get my panasonic cf-c2
[2021-06-08T16:30:26Z] <riteo> if you want to add guides for that
[2021-06-08T16:30:59Z] <midfavila> i've actually yet to disassemble my laptop
[2021-06-08T16:31:07Z] <midfavila> but I want to upgrade its RAM soon
[2021-06-08T16:31:15Z] <riteo> nice
[2021-06-08T16:31:16Z] <midfavila> which involves an almost complete disassembly...
[2021-06-08T16:31:28Z] <midfavila> le sigh
[2021-06-08T16:31:39Z] <acheam> Sounds like a shitty laptop
[2021-06-08T16:31:45Z] <acheam> can't believe your reccomend it
[2021-06-08T16:31:55Z] <midfavila> it's a subnotebook. of course it's shitty, acheam
[2021-06-08T16:32:02Z] <midfavila> but among subnotebooks it's quite excellent.
[2021-06-08T16:32:08Z] <acheam> jut a supernotebook
[2021-06-08T16:32:21Z] <acheam> s/jut/get/g
[2021-06-08T16:32:25Z] <midfavila> if I could afford parts for my getac I'd be using that
[2021-06-08T16:32:30Z] <midfavila> gotta get my gains on
[2021-06-08T16:32:43Z] <midfavila> thing weighs like fifteen pounds fully kitted
[2021-06-08T16:33:00Z] <dilyn> sell one of your CPUs
[2021-06-08T16:33:05Z] <riteo> acheam: why's that? Do you have any other recommendation?
[2021-06-08T16:33:05Z] <dilyn> disregard cores, acquire currency
[2021-06-08T16:33:22Z] <midfavila> currency will be acquired in due time
[2021-06-08T16:33:58Z] <riteo> I actually plan to get a not too powerful, extremely disassembable and maintenable laptop, and the cf-c2 looks really nice for what I need
[2021-06-08T16:41:54Z] <nerditup> | Just as I thought. No actual simplicity, just some neckbeards complaining about software evolving in the last 20 years.
[2021-06-08T16:41:59Z] <nerditup> :D
[2021-06-08T16:42:14Z] <nerditup> just saw this on the testimonials section of the site
[2021-06-08T16:42:14Z] <midfavila> that's hecker noose for you
[2021-06-08T16:45:05Z] <riteo> nerditup: you've seen nothing
[2021-06-08T16:45:11Z] <riteo> look at it and the merchandise section
[2021-06-08T16:45:43Z] <riteo> yes, there's a merchandise section
[2021-06-08T16:47:18Z] <riteo> just look at it, it's beautiful: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/6799467/81232022-d2d61f00-8ffc-11ea-8c29-8ba9c3f4d173.png
[2021-06-08T16:47:45Z] <riteo> this is one of the most based things I've ever seen dylan do
[2021-06-08T16:49:05Z] <midfavila> i actually kind of want one of those shirts
[2021-06-08T16:49:13Z] <riteo> yes
[2021-06-08T16:49:18Z] <riteo> this and the printed manual
[2021-06-08T16:49:20Z] <midfavila> normally I'm not a t-shirt kinda guy, but I'd make an exception
[2021-06-08T16:49:35Z] <dilyn> I've considered buying one for too long
[2021-06-08T16:50:39Z] <riteo> this is the only accepted use of js right now
[2021-06-08T17:03:31Z] <nerditup> I'd buy it
[2021-06-08T17:06:33Z] <dilyn> all proceeds from merch sales go... somewhere, I'm sure of it
[2021-06-08T17:06:38Z] <dilyn> probably to Dylan lmao
[2021-06-08T17:12:22Z] <noocsharp> unfortunately the address goes nowhere
[2021-06-08T17:19:21Z] <dilyn> f
[2021-06-08T17:19:39Z] <riteo> bruh moment
[2021-06-08T17:20:08Z] <riteo> I mean, someone might make just updated graphics and we might order them somewhere if we're not sure where it goes
[2021-06-08T17:20:41Z] <riteo> after all, it's not like he would've earned that much anyways, what? Like 1 buck?
[2021-06-08T17:31:07Z] <dilyn> margins on shirts is pretty big ngl
[2021-06-08T17:37:33Z] <nerditup> what about a plain black t-shirt with the little lips in the corner
[2021-06-08T17:38:38Z] <nerditup> on the back it reads, "keep it simple"
[2021-06-08T17:39:06Z] <noocsharp> "keep it simple stupid"
[2021-06-08T17:39:10Z] <noocsharp> it ain't KIS
[2021-06-08T17:40:21Z] <nerditup> the extra S is implied :D subtle
[2021-06-08T17:40:34Z] <nerditup> those who know, they know
[2021-06-08T17:41:00Z] <noocsharp> but we want to keep it simple, no hidden things
[2021-06-08T17:44:02Z] <riteo> keep it simple subtle
[2021-06-08T18:01:04Z] <rio6> have keep it simple in the front
[2021-06-08T18:01:08Z] <rio6> and a big supid on the back
[2021-06-08T18:01:13Z] <riteo> lmao
[2021-06-08T18:06:31Z] <kiedtl> stupid simpleton
[2021-06-08T18:24:03Z] <ang> let's keep it simple, plain black t-shirt
[2021-06-08T18:24:16Z] <riteo> that's it
[2021-06-08T18:24:18Z] <riteo> it's decided
[2021-06-08T18:24:25Z] <dilyn> plain black tees
[2021-06-08T18:24:48Z] <riteo> tet is bloat
[2021-06-08T18:24:55Z] <riteo> aaand I spilled stuff on my keyboard
[2021-06-08T18:24:56Z] <riteo> nice
[2021-06-08T18:25:20Z] <midfavila> fuck, finally done with chapter one
[2021-06-08T18:25:30Z] <midfavila> K&R is brutal with some of its exercises
[2021-06-08T18:31:19Z] <omanom> congrats!  you gonna jump right into chapter 2?
[2021-06-08T18:32:24Z] <midfavila> later today, yeah
[2021-06-08T18:32:37Z] <midfavila> i've already started reading ahead a little bit. i'm so fucking sick of putchar and printf
[2021-06-08T18:33:05Z] <midfavila> i want to start writing personally useful programs soon. that'll be really rewarding
[2021-06-08T18:38:46Z] <acheam> midfavila: what do you wear if not t shirts?
[2021-06-08T18:39:01Z] <midfavila> almost exclusively buttoned shirts
[2021-06-08T18:39:04Z] <acheam> you know you don't need to do ever exersize to completion, right?
[2021-06-08T18:39:10Z] <acheam> wow that completely changed my image of you
[2021-06-08T18:39:24Z] <midfavila> hah, what'd you think I wore?
[2021-06-08T18:39:35Z] <acheam> graphic Ts
[2021-06-08T18:39:42Z] <midfavila> and yeah, I know I don't have to complete every exercise, but I want to get as close as possible
[2021-06-08T18:39:42Z] <midfavila> ew
[2021-06-08T18:39:57Z] <midfavila> i think I own one t-shirt, and it's just a plain navy one.
[2021-06-08T18:40:25Z] <midfavila> i almost always dress in beige slacks and a matching shirt.
[2021-06-08T18:41:22Z] <acheam> "slacks"
[2021-06-08T18:41:45Z] <midfavila> yes. slacks
[2021-06-08T18:41:48Z] <midfavila> also known as trousers
[2021-06-08T18:43:57Z] <omanom> >beige slacks and a button-down shirt
[2021-06-08T18:44:01Z] <omanom> midfavila is a boomer?!
[2021-06-08T18:44:49Z] <midfavila> yes, the truth is revealed
[2021-06-08T18:45:05Z] <omanom> it explains your interest in older hardware :)
[2021-06-08T18:45:12Z] <midfavila> uwu
[2021-06-08T18:48:35Z] <dilyn> buttoned shirts are the only way
[2021-06-08T18:48:49Z] <dilyn> v-necks and button downs
[2021-06-08T18:48:58Z] <dilyn> don't forget the skinny jeans
[2021-06-08T18:49:03Z] <dilyn> a beanie for good measure
[2021-06-08T18:49:06Z] <midfavila> absolutely disgusting
[2021-06-08T18:49:19Z] <midfavila> when will you break out the overly-long knit scarf
[2021-06-08T18:49:30Z] <dilyn> in the winter lad
[2021-06-08T18:49:52Z] <midfavila> i can't stand using scarves
[2021-06-08T18:50:07Z] <dilyn> you must just not be cold enough
[2021-06-08T18:50:08Z] <midfavila> i just turn up the neck of my coat
[2021-06-08T18:51:36Z] <dilyn> brood lord
[2021-06-08T18:52:12Z] <midfavila> ..."brood lord"?
[2021-06-08T18:52:44Z] * acheam just wears T shirts + khaki shorts/pants depending on the season
[2021-06-08T18:54:39Z] <dilyn> like an edge lord, but less edge and more brood
[2021-06-08T19:00:26Z] <midfavila-laptop> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
[2021-06-08T19:00:30Z] <midfavila-laptop> it's still so hot out today
[2021-06-08T19:03:42Z] <kiedtl> the humidity is the worst >:C
[2021-06-08T19:04:28Z] <midfavila-laptop> yeah... it really is
[2021-06-08T19:04:34Z] <midfavila-laptop> it's been especially bad in my city the past week
[2021-06-08T19:38:51Z] <acheam>  its 93f right now
[2021-06-08T19:38:58Z] <acheam> east coast heat wave?
[2021-06-08T19:39:35Z] <kiedtl> 100+ here
[2021-06-08T19:40:58Z] <rio6> 14C :3
[2021-06-08T19:43:48Z] <kiedtl> ,wa 14 * 2 + 30
[2021-06-08T19:53:33Z] <acheam> lol
[2021-06-08T19:53:52Z] <acheam> thats on you that its not here
[2021-06-08T19:56:35Z] <kiedtl> The bot isn't even here, sheesh
[2021-06-08T19:56:47Z] <kiedtl> I'm getting too carried away with working on my roguelike
[2021-06-08T19:57:47Z] <schillingklaus> how does this roglike differ from angband, moria, or nethack?
[2021-06-08T19:58:56Z] <kiedtl> How could you not include Stone Soup in that list :P
[2021-06-08T19:59:17Z] <kiedtl> schillingklaus: well, for one thing everything is stealth oriented
[2021-06-08T20:00:10Z] <kiedtl> just about every mob could whop you by themself, it's up to use to use a combination of harmful potions, superior ranged weapons (which none of the other mobs possess) and your superior vision and hearing to escape each time there's an encounter
[2021-06-08T20:00:49Z] <midfavila-laptop> acheam this isn't a heat wave
[2021-06-08T20:00:53Z] <midfavila-laptop> just part of the usual summer weather
[2021-06-08T20:00:58Z] <kiedtl> Also, there are a large amount of mobs that are either (a) hostile to both you and the dungeon's main monsters or (b) friendly to you and hostile to the others
[2021-06-08T20:00:59Z] <midfavila-laptop> it regularly gets up to around 40C/100F
[2021-06-08T20:01:12Z] <kiedtl> which you can manipulate to distract mobs that are trying to chase you
[2021-06-08T20:01:34Z] <kiedtl> smh what are those slackers doing on the irc3 comittee, I want my reply-to
[2021-06-08T20:01:44Z] <schillingklaus> sounds difficult
[2021-06-08T20:02:09Z] <kiedtl> Heh, yeah
[2021-06-08T20:02:46Z] <midfavila-laptop> is ircv3 supposed to be backward compatible with the current protocol?
[2021-06-08T20:03:04Z] <kiedtl> schillingklaus:  There are a bunch of other novel things about it (for instance, the majority of monsters don't care a fig about you and will just go about doing their own job), I'm working on a little essay detailing them. I'll probably link it here once I'm through :)
[2021-06-08T20:03:08Z] <kiedtl> midfavila-laptop: yup
[2021-06-08T20:03:34Z] <midfavila-laptop> nice.
[2021-06-08T20:07:31Z] <midfavila-laptop> fuck
[2021-06-08T20:08:07Z] <midfavila-laptop> the car I'm in ran out of gas. :|
[2021-06-08T20:14:19Z] <omanom> oof no more ac eh
[2021-06-08T20:16:28Z] <midfavila-laptop> correct
[2021-06-08T20:16:34Z] <midfavila-laptop> now I must suffer in the heat
[2021-06-08T20:16:38Z] <midfavila-laptop> like a plebian
[2021-06-08T20:16:41Z] <midfavila-laptop> >:c
[2021-06-08T20:22:56Z] <omanom> just point your laptop's exhaust at you for a fan!
[2021-06-08T20:23:13Z] <kiedtl> but do 'kiss b cmake' first
[2021-06-08T20:29:59Z] <midfavila-laptop> my laptop doesn't have a fan
[2021-06-08T20:30:01Z] <midfavila-laptop> ;w;
[2021-06-08T20:39:27Z] <acheam> uh what
[2021-06-08T20:39:37Z] <acheam> are you in a ridrshare?
[2021-06-08T20:39:51Z] <acheam> were you on your laptop in it?
[2021-06-08T20:43:32Z] <midfavila-laptop> nah, I'm out with a friend
[2021-06-08T20:43:36Z] <midfavila-laptop> but I am on my laptop, yes
[2021-06-08T20:43:42Z] <midfavila-laptop> why?
[2021-06-08T21:06:09Z] <dilyn> my computer has almost zero fans :X
[2021-06-08T21:06:19Z] <dilyn> just the one on the CPU cooler and the GPU shroud
[2021-06-08T21:06:25Z] <dilyn> makes my room a constant 37C lmfao
[2021-06-08T21:06:30Z] <midfavila-laptop> my cosmos has like
[2021-06-08T21:06:31Z] <midfavila-laptop> five
[2021-06-08T21:06:36Z] <midfavila-laptop> soon to increase, I'm sure
[2021-06-08T21:06:52Z] <midfavila-laptop> has better acoustics than my last case though
[2021-06-08T21:07:05Z] <midfavila-laptop> and I don't have to risk slicing my hands open just to get at the internals
[2021-06-08T21:09:10Z] <dilyn> sometimes I can hear my CPU fan and I cry a little bit
[2021-06-08T21:09:15Z] <dilyn> gimme my 480 rad :'(
[2021-06-08T21:09:44Z] <midfavila-laptop> imagine using liquid cooling
[2021-06-08T21:12:02Z] <dilyn> I can most certainly imagine
[2021-06-08T21:12:10Z] <dilyn> and it's absolutely tantalizing
[2021-06-08T21:20:59Z] <illiliti> https://github.com/illiliti/go-tsort
[2021-06-08T21:21:02Z] <illiliti> accurate dependency resolution slowly getting into king :)
[2021-06-08T21:21:55Z] <noocsharp> tsort = topological sort?
[2021-06-08T21:22:08Z] <illiliti> +
[2021-06-08T21:23:00Z] <noocsharp> nice
[2021-06-08T21:24:09Z] <illiliti> it's surprising that busybox didn't implement such a simple algorithm
[2021-06-08T21:25:22Z] <noocsharp> sbase does apparently
[2021-06-08T21:25:30Z] <noocsharp> i didn't even know it was a thing
[2021-06-08T21:25:36Z] <illiliti> yeah
[2021-06-08T21:25:37Z] <illiliti> lol
[2021-06-08T21:25:51Z] <illiliti> it's POSIX lol
[2021-06-08T21:25:53Z] <noocsharp> that's actually immensely useful
[2021-06-08T21:26:43Z] <illiliti> ref: https://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/tsort.html
[2021-06-08T21:27:05Z] <illiliti> it's probably can be used to implement proper dependency resolution in kiss
[2021-06-08T21:27:22Z] <illiliti> the problem is busybox though
[2021-06-08T21:27:33Z] <illiliti> we can borrow implementation from sbase
[2021-06-08T21:54:27Z] <dilyn> it's so small!
[2021-06-08T21:55:45Z] <midfavila> bluh
[2021-06-08T21:55:58Z] <midfavila> K&R can wait for tomorrow
[2021-06-08T22:07:59Z] <noocsharp> i had to implement topo sort for a class, it's a very simple algorithm as illiliti said
[2021-06-08T22:09:41Z] <noocsharp> start at vertices with no incoming edges, and just walk
[2021-06-08T22:10:32Z] <dilyn> god i hate graph theory
[2021-06-08T22:12:03Z] <june> > just walk
[2021-06-08T22:12:06Z] <june> away from the computer :)
[2021-06-08T22:12:31Z] <noocsharp> before i learned about it, i just assumed graph algorithms we're just complicated and unintuitive
[2021-06-08T22:12:38Z] <noocsharp> but it's actually quite the opposite
[2021-06-08T22:15:56Z] <midfavila> bluh, that's another thing I have to learn about
[2021-06-08T22:21:00Z] <illiliti> noocsharp: you're describing Kahn's algorithm which is quite verbose i would like to say
[2021-06-08T22:21:11Z] <illiliti> DFS is much simpler
[2021-06-08T22:21:30Z] <noocsharp> "note: expected 'struct wl_surface *' but argument is of type 'struct wl_surface *'"
[2021-06-08T22:21:33Z] <noocsharp> thanks mr gcc
[2021-06-08T22:23:26Z] <noocsharp> illiliti: yeah, i think you're right
[2021-06-08T22:26:21Z] <dilyn> yeah graph walking algorithms are straightforward and you can learn a lot of interesting stuff if you involve some linear algebra
[2021-06-08T22:26:23Z] <dilyn> very extensible
[2021-06-08T22:26:31Z] <dilyn> it's just... I just don't like graphs lmao
[2021-06-08T22:26:35Z] <midfavila> erlgerlberl
[2021-06-08T22:29:10Z] <noocsharp> well good luck getting proper dependency resolution in kiss without them :)
[2021-06-08T22:32:28Z] * dilyn shrugs
[2021-06-08T22:32:52Z] <dilyn> maybe when I want to think about it I'll realize it's a nightmare worth resolving
[2021-06-08T22:33:23Z] <midfavila> if and when I'm not godawful with mathematics, I'd be willing to help
[2021-06-08T22:33:46Z] <illiliti> implementing graphs in shell is painful without proper arrays
[2021-06-08T22:33:50Z] <illiliti> but i think it's possible
[2021-06-08T22:34:20Z] <noocsharp> i mean you can just maintain a list of edges, right?
[2021-06-08T22:34:41Z] <noocsharp> i guess the algorithms might be painful to write for that tho
[2021-06-08T22:38:02Z] <noocsharp> "| tsort" and all your problems are solved
[2021-06-08T22:38:06Z] <dilyn> i mean...
[2021-06-08T22:38:10Z] <illiliti> noocsharp: without proper arrays and structures that would involve a lot of parsing
[2021-06-08T22:38:13Z] <illiliti> and stuff like that: set -- $array
[2021-06-08T22:38:31Z] <illiliti> that would be inefficent, but possible to implement
[2021-06-08T22:38:38Z] <illiliti> i think
[2021-06-08T22:39:07Z] <dilyn> probably
[2021-06-08T22:39:17Z] <noocsharp> i'm beginning to suspect that shell script is not the best choice of language for a package manager
[2021-06-08T22:39:24Z] <dilyn> it would be a fun little project but I have no idea how fragile or slow it would be
[2021-06-08T22:39:30Z] <dilyn> lmfao impossible!
[2021-06-08T22:39:32Z] <dilyn> blasphemy!
[2021-06-08T22:39:36Z] <midfavila> idk dilyn
[2021-06-08T22:39:47Z] <midfavila> i feel like scheme or lisp would be a better interpreted language
[2021-06-08T22:39:57Z] <midfavila> muh recursion, muh functional language
[2021-06-08T22:40:54Z] <dilyn> go ahead and turn our meme package manager into a meme package manager written in a meme language
[2021-06-08T22:41:01Z] <dilyn> sch(m)eme
[2021-06-08T22:41:20Z] <midfavila> when I stop spending all day meming in a meme distro's meme-channel about their meme-manager I will
[2021-06-08T22:42:36Z] <noocsharp> damn, for the past 10 months i've been running a meme distro on my primary computer
[2021-06-08T22:43:08Z] <noocsharp> and it's better than the non-meme distro i was running before :>
[2021-06-08T22:44:12Z] <dilyn> :<
[2021-06-08T22:44:20Z] <dilyn> you're describing me!
[2021-06-08T22:46:48Z] <illiliti> midfavila: did you see guile? what's your thoughts of this lang?
[2021-06-08T22:47:20Z] <midfavila> it's neat
[2021-06-08T22:47:25Z] <midfavila> i mean, it's a scheme. scheme is neat
[2021-06-08T22:47:45Z] <midfavila> although among the current schemes I like chicken the most
[2021-06-08T22:48:45Z] <midfavila> minimal deps, doesn't take forever to build, can either be interpreted or transpiled to C, has a number of library bindings available...
[2021-06-08T22:49:13Z] <illiliti> ... and nicely integrated into guix
[2021-06-08T22:49:49Z] <midfavila> I was describing chicken :p
[2021-06-08T22:49:57Z] <midfavila> Guix is cool, though
[2021-06-08T22:50:03Z] <midfavila> I've considered trying it on my main machine
[2021-06-08T22:51:56Z] <dilyn> muh libre software
[2021-06-08T22:52:08Z] <illiliti> the only thing i don't like in NixOs/Guix is systemd approach
[2021-06-08T22:52:13Z] <illiliti> i mean everything is centralized in one place
[2021-06-08T22:52:18Z] <midfavila> silence, BSD cuck
[2021-06-08T22:52:19Z] <illiliti> this limits control over system so much
[2021-06-08T22:52:30Z] <midfavila> does guix use poetterware?
[2021-06-08T22:52:36Z] <midfavila> if so, that's really disappointing
[2021-06-08T22:52:43Z] <illiliti> no no
[2021-06-08T22:52:55Z] <illiliti> they use sheperd as init
[2021-06-08T22:53:00Z] <illiliti> written in guile
[2021-06-08T22:53:05Z] <midfavila> i was gonna say...
[2021-06-08T22:58:42Z] <illiliti> mhm..., how hard it would be to port shepherd to kiss?
[2021-06-08T22:59:19Z] * midfavila shrugs
[2021-06-08T23:01:50Z] <illiliti> source: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/shepherd.git
[2021-06-08T23:05:10Z] <dilyn> this looks absolutely horrific
[2021-06-08T23:05:12Z] <dilyn> oh wait sorry
[2021-06-08T23:05:15Z] <dilyn> ;; this looks
[2021-06-08T23:05:19Z] <dilyn> (absolutely horrific
[2021-06-08T23:05:37Z] <midfavila> )
[2021-06-08T23:06:59Z] <illiliti> yeah, definitely not beginner-friendly
[2021-06-08T23:07:04Z] <illiliti> you had to be addicted to LISP to understand this
[2021-06-08T23:07:46Z] <noocsharp> damn .git cargo cultists
[2021-06-08T23:08:01Z] <noocsharp> as devault would say
[2021-06-08T23:13:19Z] <noocsharp> does shepherd do service management too?
[2021-06-08T23:13:40Z] <noocsharp> oh wait, that's literally what it is
[2021-06-08T23:13:57Z] <midfavila> yup
[2021-06-08T23:14:19Z] <illiliti> it's systemd written in guile
[2021-06-08T23:16:00Z] <noocsharp> whenever i hear guile i associate it with the bile
[2021-06-08T23:16:05Z] <noocsharp> not a great name for a language
[2021-06-08T23:16:51Z] <dilyn> not inaccurate tho
[2021-06-08T23:36:53Z] <illiliti> https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/tree/README#n20
[2021-06-08T23:36:59Z] <illiliti> looks minimal
[2021-06-08T23:37:08Z] <illiliti> althrough there is the bad things: libintl, libltdl
[2021-06-08T23:37:20Z] <illiliti> everything else can be vendored and statically linked
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