2021-01-23T00:03:09 #kisslinux <midfavila1> man I can't wait to get my hands on hyperbola BSD when it becomes available
2021-01-23T00:20:21 #kisslinux * acheam looks up hyperbola bsd
2021-01-23T00:20:39 #kisslinux * acheam joins the hype train
2021-01-23T00:20:42 #kisslinux <acheam> this looks really cool!
2021-01-23T00:20:52 #kisslinux <midfavila1> yup
2021-01-23T00:21:12 #kisslinux <midfavila1> the hyperbola guys are cool
2021-01-23T00:21:21 #kisslinux <midfavila1> they maintain ice*-uxp too
2021-01-23T00:21:58 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i feel like if you could combine kiss with hBSD that would be super awesome
2021-01-23T00:22:29 #kisslinux <midfavila1> of course that would be a massive pain for the person starting the new kiss repo but
2021-01-23T00:28:40 #kisslinux <acheam> I'd love to switch to obsd, but theres pretty much just one thing holding me back: Zoom. It should be illegal to use proprietary software in schools
2021-01-23T00:28:57 #kisslinux <midfavila1> tbh yeah
2021-01-23T00:29:09 #kisslinux <acheam> After COVID maybe I could
2021-01-23T00:29:10 #kisslinux <midfavila1> my school distributes textbooks using a proprietary web platform
2021-01-23T00:29:21 #kisslinux <midfavila1> which is ghfhhdfhfjkfsdjgfjksdghkjsdgsd
2021-01-23T00:29:36 #kisslinux <acheam> That sucks. My whole school runs on gSuite, so its impossible for me to degoogle to any reasonable extent
2021-01-23T00:30:03 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i have a google account, but it's totally seperate from my other computers and networks
2021-01-23T00:30:09 #kisslinux <midfavila1> and only lives on my school-issue chromebook
2021-01-23T00:30:13 #kisslinux <midfavila1> which I only use for school
2021-01-23T00:30:14 #kisslinux <midfavila1> so
2021-01-23T00:30:43 #kisslinux <acheam> I might get a school computer for zoom. My computer has a terrible webcam anyways.
2021-01-23T00:35:09 #kisslinux <midfavila1> it's always good to seperate school/work and personal stuff
2021-01-23T07:32:02 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> acheam: At my university, if we say we do not have equipment (e.g. a computer that don't run Zoom), they are supposed to offer equipment to us. At least when it comes to exams. However, then we probably would need to actually be in school, using their desktops and I would honestly rather just have a crap-laptop with compatible software on to use only for school...
2021-01-23T07:33:04 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> But yeah, they shouldn't force anyone to use proprietary software.
2021-01-23T13:00:12 #kisslinux <acheam> Blaklinten: my school does the same. just don't know a) whether they'll believe that I want a school computer because I don't want to run proprietary software on my own and 2) whether I'm fine with the school spying on me with their own root certificate, management software etc. unfortunately I do need to use zoom in my personal life as well
2021-01-23T13:02:44 #kisslinux <midfavila1> see if you can't pick up a cheapo laptop maybe
2021-01-23T14:18:44 #kisslinux <acheam> midfavila1: good idea
2021-01-23T14:19:47 #kisslinux <midfavila1> (get a CF-C2)
2021-01-23T14:19:49 #kisslinux <midfavila1> (do it)
2021-01-23T14:22:08 #kisslinux <acheam> seems on brand for me Lol
2021-01-23T14:22:29 #kisslinux <midfavila1> i mean they're just awesome laptops
2021-01-23T14:30:19 #kisslinux <acheam> expensive from what I can see though
2021-01-23T14:33:51 #kisslinux <midfavila1> you can get 'em for like 200$ on ebay
2021-01-23T15:16:49 #kisslinux <mcpcpc[m]> tracer:
2021-01-23T15:26:17 #kisslinux <tracer^> yes, mcpcpc[m]
2021-01-23T15:28:17 #kisslinux <mcpcpc[m]> tracer^: ?
2021-01-23T15:28:57 #kisslinux <tracer^> you mentioned me?
2021-01-23T15:31:01 #kisslinux <mcpcpc[m]> err i don’t think so... lol.
2021-01-23T15:32:06 #kisslinux <midfavila1> you did
2021-01-23T15:32:42 #kisslinux <midfavila> you did
2021-01-23T15:32:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> it might have just been a client error or something though
2021-01-23T15:32:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> who knows
2021-01-23T15:33:02 #kisslinux <mcpcpc[m]> my last message was on Jan 5th.
2021-01-23T15:33:09 #kisslinux <mcpcpc[m]> lol. maybe. weird
2021-01-23T15:36:57 #kisslinux <acheam> https://i.imgur.com/PCBQYZg.png
2021-01-23T15:46:18 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> acheam: oh... If it is not too personal to ask, how do you need to use Zoom in private life?
2021-01-23T15:47:30 #kisslinux <acheam> Blaklinten: Its the de facto video conferencing platform where I am, so if I attend any online event, its probably going to be on zoom
2021-01-23T15:51:08 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> Ah, I see. Makes senses then! Where I live, almost nobody (that I know of, company or people) outside of school use Zoom. The chaos is real; Teams, WebEx, Skype, Snapchat, Messenger, Google Meet... And all of these have their on app to download and register on...
2021-01-23T15:51:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> I just email people like a boomer
2021-01-23T15:52:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> no need to sign up for a billion services just to have a conversation
2021-01-23T15:52:43 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> What is the golden three; IRC, Email and HTLM...? :D
2021-01-23T15:52:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> IRC, email, raw sockets
2021-01-23T15:53:15 #kisslinux <acheam> raw sockets for the win. Why use a bloated client when you already have netcat?
2021-01-23T15:53:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> exactly
2021-01-23T15:53:55 #kisslinux <midfavila> although real OGs don't even use TCP/IP
2021-01-23T15:53:59 #kisslinux <midfavila> they use UUCP
2021-01-23T15:55:55 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> Have not heard about that one before... #N00B
2021-01-23T15:56:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> unix to unix copy
2021-01-23T15:56:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> uses hostnames to route traffic
2021-01-23T15:56:24 #kisslinux <acheam> and people talk about FTP being outdated!
2021-01-23T15:56:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> it's totally obsolete
2021-01-23T15:56:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> http://www.uucpnet.org/linux/
2021-01-23T15:57:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> basically the idea is that you would chain dial-ins to access your target
2021-01-23T15:57:33 #kisslinux <midfavila> so if you're foo, and the target is bar, you might route through alice and bob's computers
2021-01-23T15:57:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> foo!alice!bob!bar
2021-01-23T15:58:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> and then that would call from your machine to alice, who would then call bob, who would finally cal bar
2021-01-23T15:58:12 #kisslinux <midfavila> s/cal/call
2021-01-23T15:58:13 #kisslinux <kissbot> <midfavila> and then that would calll from your machine to alice, who would then call bob, who would finally cal bar
2021-01-23T15:58:23 #kisslinux <midfavila> wow thanks kissbot >.>
2021-01-23T15:59:51 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> Well, seems legit! I would really appreciate a course on "historical UNIX". Fascinating stuff.
2021-01-23T16:00:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, AT&T has tapes of interviews with the Bell Labs people from the 70s and stuff
2021-01-23T16:00:34 #kisslinux <midfavila> and then you can check out the computer chronicles
2021-01-23T16:00:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> they have a few episodes on unix from the eighties
2021-01-23T16:00:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> i'd also recommend reading about the UNIX wars and in particular the history of POSIX and X11
2021-01-23T16:01:27 #kisslinux <acheam> i've been collecting a bit of unix history, its a lot of fun
2021-01-23T16:01:34 #kisslinux <acheam> not physical stuff, just documents
2021-01-23T16:01:39 #kisslinux <midfavila> unix is neat, yeah
2021-01-23T16:01:43 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> midfavila: Will do, thanks!
2021-01-23T16:01:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> for a while I've been interested in CP/M as well
2021-01-23T16:02:01 #kisslinux <acheam> I think if you're in this chat room, you can already appreciate the older way of doing things with computers
2021-01-23T16:02:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> suppose so :P
2021-01-23T16:03:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh also
2021-01-23T16:03:14 #kisslinux <midfavila> you'll want to read up on the ARPANET and BerkNet
2021-01-23T16:03:18 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> I recently got stuck watching a series on the BSD history and why i.e. FreeBSD is lagging Linux due to the lawsuits back then. Very interesting to know some of the background of why we are where we are today!
2021-01-23T16:03:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> and NYNEX and the BBS scene
2021-01-23T16:03:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> PCs and UNIXes were almost totally orthagonal for most of the 70s and 80s
2021-01-23T16:04:43 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> I just love how some people still use IRC and most do not even know it exists. I mean, even most people in IT seems oblivious
2021-01-23T16:05:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> i think it's because there are people who "work in IT" and then there are hobbyists
2021-01-23T16:05:26 #kisslinux <midfavila> the people who just work with computers don't actually care about them for their own sake, they just want to make money quickly and easily
2021-01-23T16:05:42 #kisslinux <tracer^> I startet with Solaris in the 90ies, and Linux with 1.0.9 :)
2021-01-23T16:06:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> the only "Real UNIX" I've ever used was Tribblix, which is a version of Ilumos (itself a fork of OpenSolaris)
2021-01-23T16:06:47 #kisslinux <tracer^> Just a stupid question: When I got the same packe in different repos, which one gets installed? First in path or higher version?
2021-01-23T16:06:54 #kisslinux <midfavila> first in path
2021-01-23T16:07:05 #kisslinux <midfavila> $KISS_PATH is parsed the same way as $PATH
2021-01-23T16:07:52 #kisslinux <tracer^> ok, thanks.
2021-01-23T16:08:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> Oh!!! Another thing to look into is Project Xanadu
2021-01-23T16:08:07 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> True. Its a bit frustrating to me how little people seems to care about _how_ stuff works as long as it works. Make them very vulnerable to change and news.
2021-01-23T16:08:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> they started experimenting with hypertext in the 50s
2021-01-23T16:08:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> which is absolutely wild
2021-01-23T16:09:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> there are a lot of books I'd recommend too
2021-01-23T16:10:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> Computer Lib/Dream Machine and Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution are both really good
2021-01-23T16:10:26 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> Damn. Were there even computers in the 50s?
2021-01-23T16:10:40 #kisslinux <midfavila> computers in some form have been around for millenium :P
2021-01-23T16:10:48 #kisslinux <midfavila> but yes, there were electronic computers in the 50s
2021-01-23T16:10:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> mostly IBM mainframes
2021-01-23T16:11:05 #kisslinux <acheam> mainframes are insane
2021-01-23T16:11:11 #kisslinux <midfavila> before that there were early machines in the 40s and even 30s
2021-01-23T16:11:15 #kisslinux <acheam> a rabbit hole that goes very deep
2021-01-23T16:11:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> using drum and later core memory
2021-01-23T16:11:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> which is where the term "core dump" comes from, by the by
2021-01-23T16:12:08 #kisslinux <Blaklinten> I guess the work by Turing during ww2 did put some coal to the fire.
2021-01-23T16:12:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> you could argue that the first modern computer in the sense that it was a general purpose programmable device was Charles Babbage's Difference Engine
2021-01-23T16:12:31 #kisslinux <midfavila> and that was back in the 1800s or something
2021-01-23T16:12:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> and yeah ww2 really proved the value of the computer
2021-01-23T16:13:18 #kisslinux <midfavila> 1820 yeah
2021-01-23T16:13:24 #kisslinux <midfavila> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_engine
2021-01-23T16:18:46 #kisslinux <midfavila> man I wish I could afford a set of "The Art of Computer Programming"
2021-01-23T16:19:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> but my local bookstore wants 500$ for a complete set of the available volumes
2021-01-23T16:20:53 #kisslinux <acheam> oh man
2021-01-23T16:21:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> Yeah. It's crazy
2021-01-23T16:22:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> Besides, I doubt I'd understand most of the material, pffft. I'm not that well versed in advanced maths
2021-01-23T16:30:23 #kisslinux <tracer^> Are there any plans for a UsrMerge in KISS?
2021-01-23T16:31:36 #kisslinux <midfavila> that depends on whether we wait for BDFL to come back or if we fork the distro
2021-01-23T16:31:49 #kisslinux <midfavila> everything is on hold until that gets worked out
2021-01-23T16:32:08 #kisslinux <tracer^> OK, thy.
2021-01-23T16:32:21 #kisslinux <midfavila> that reminds me
2021-01-23T16:32:27 #kisslinux <midfavila> I need to try and rip curl out from kiss
2021-01-23T16:32:41 #kisslinux <tracer^> why?
2021-01-23T16:32:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> replace it with axel for that multi-connection performance increase
2021-01-23T16:33:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> https://github.com/axel-download-accelerator/axel
2021-01-23T16:34:58 #kisslinux <tracer^> Sounds promising
2021-01-23T16:35:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> i've been meaning to tinker with it for a while
2021-01-23T16:35:10 #kisslinux <midfavila> it shouldn't be hard
2021-01-23T16:41:45 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah a simple sed -i s/curl/axel/ works
2021-01-23T16:41:50 #kisslinux <midfavila> just gotta remove the extra flags
2021-01-23T16:44:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> of course, that won't help at all if it's a git repo, but it's still a very noticable speed increase for regular http pulls
2021-01-23T16:56:44 #kisslinux <tracer^> What must I set for KISS_SU when I want to run kiss as root?
2021-01-23T16:57:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> just set whatever you normally do
2021-01-23T16:59:36 #kisslinux <tracer^> I'm on a quite fresh install, I don't remenber how I made it last time ^^ I housed my setup while switching from parallels to VMWare fusion. It took me hours to find out that the disc were SCSI by default instead of SATA :-)
2021-01-23T17:00:20 #kisslinux <midfavila> they're not scsi, they're just handled by the same kernel driver
2021-01-23T17:00:28 #kisslinux <midfavila> but you can set su if you just want something to work out of the box
2021-01-23T17:01:42 #kisslinux <tracer^> My system didn't boot up until I changed from SCSI to SATA. Was very stupid of me. I was able to access them like usual /dev/sda and so on. BTW, I found su, its in util-linux.
2021-01-23T17:02:41 #kisslinux <midfavila> su is provided by busybox by default
2021-01-23T17:03:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> weird if it isn't included in a fresh install
2021-01-23T17:03:18 #kisslinux <tracer^> Id on't use busybox, neither musl.
2021-01-23T17:03:38 #kisslinux <tracer^> s/on't/don't/g
2021-01-23T17:03:39 #kisslinux <kissbot> <tracer^> Id don't use busybox, neither musl.
2021-01-23T17:03:56 #kisslinux <tracer^> I took the tarball from KissD
2021-01-23T17:22:51 #kisslinux <konimex> is it even still maintained?
2021-01-23T17:23:27 #kisslinux <tracer^> glibc is 2.32 and systemd-247
2021-01-23T17:23:33 #kisslinux <konimex> <tracer^ "Are there any plans for a UsrMer"> I think KISS pretty much does UsrMerge from the very beginning of the distro
2021-01-23T17:24:45 #kisslinux <tracer^> Hmm, konimex, I've got a mixture of sources, kissK, GKISS, KISS-KDE, gcommunity, community, my own stuff. it all over the places currently.
2021-01-23T17:25:04 #kisslinux <tracer^> s/kissK/kissD/
2021-01-23T17:25:05 #kisslinux <kissbot> <tracer^> Hmm, konimex, I've got a mixture of sources, kissD, GKISS, KISS-KDE, gcommunity, community, my own stuff. it all over the places currently.
2021-01-23T17:25:50 #kisslinux <konimex> your base should be kissD, right?
2021-01-23T17:25:59 #kisslinux <tracer^> yes
2021-01-23T17:28:48 #kisslinux <konimex> the baselayout should be the same as KISS (as in /bin, /sbin all point to /usr), as for the SU program if busybox doesn't provide then iirc util-linux should provide a su program
2021-01-23T17:30:33 #kisslinux <konimex> you can set KISS_SU as sls, sudo, doas, or plain su
2021-01-23T17:37:23 #kisslinux <midfavila>  cool kids use sls
2021-01-23T17:40:54 #kisslinux <tracer^> I set it to su, I'm used to work as root when i need root for 25 years. You don't change your habits …
2021-01-23T17:41:17 #kisslinux <midfavila> fair
2021-01-23T17:42:57 #kisslinux <tracer^> konimex: Yes, you are right, they are all symlinks. May I hed leftovers from a try with GKISS, but todays I started from scratch. Parallels suxx, only 8GB as RAM. Yesterday my tmpfs was full. Now I switched to Fusion, gave the VM 48 Gigs and the tmpfs 24 of them. Sufficient for fast compiling.
2021-01-23T17:48:16 #kisslinux <tracer^> That is my current KISS_PATH: https://pastebin.24unix.net/pastebin/fiche/x5dhmax2/
2021-01-23T17:49:03 #kisslinux <tracer^> I must fix that pastebin stuff, url looks ugly, sorry.
2021-01-23T17:53:24 #kisslinux <acheam> tracer: consider envs.sh
2021-01-23T17:54:05 #kisslinux <acheam> 2 character short links
2021-01-23T17:55:01 #kisslinux <tracer> I#m finde with the domain, its mine, but I must build a rewrite rule to get rid of /pastebin/fiche
2021-01-23T17:56:14 #kisslinux <acheam> ah :)
2021-01-23T17:57:29 #kisslinux <tracer> But it's broken currently after i switched to a systemd unit. Too much work on to many building sites :)
2021-01-23T17:58:03 #kisslinux <midfavila> that reminds me, I really need to get around to setting a machine up in my closet to host my stuff...
2021-01-23T18:07:40 #kisslinux <acheam> midfavila: you won't regret it
2021-01-23T18:08:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> I don't doubt it, but I have a lot to learn before I'll be able to get around to it
2021-01-23T18:08:25 #kisslinux <midfavila> plus there's the problem with email providers blocking stuff that isn't on a whitelist...
2021-01-23T18:09:08 #kisslinux <midfavila> one thing that irks me is how everyone is all "nah bro just self-host i n t h e c l o u d" and they don't realize that all they're doing is adding a single point of failure
2021-01-23T18:10:51 #kisslinux <tracer> Do you have a static IP, midfavila?
2021-01-23T18:11:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> no, not yet. I'm looking into whether I can get a business line from my ISP
2021-01-23T18:11:16 #kisslinux <midfavila> otherwise I'd have to pay 200$ a month on top of my regular bill
2021-01-23T18:11:22 #kisslinux <midfavila> which is more than highway robbery
2021-01-23T18:11:40 #kisslinux <tracer> else I can give you access to a relay.
2021-01-23T18:12:30 #kisslinux <midfavila> appreciated, but I'll have to pass on the offer, sorry
2021-01-23T18:12:35 #kisslinux <tracer> That's ugly. As I said yesterday, 49€, 200/100, static IPv4 and a /56. For 79€ it would be gigabit.
2021-01-23T18:12:43 #kisslinux <midfavila> yeah...
2021-01-23T18:12:53 #kisslinux <midfavila> only problem with the business lines is that it's a three-year lease
2021-01-23T18:13:02 #kisslinux <midfavila> and I don't plan on staying in my current apartment for three years
2021-01-23T18:13:13 #kisslinux <tracer> Why no relay?
2021-01-23T18:13:29 #kisslinux <midfavila> Eh... I don't want to impose.
2021-01-23T18:14:17 #kisslinux <tracer> The servers are there anyways …
2021-01-23T18:14:33 #kisslinux * midfavila shrugs
2021-01-23T18:15:21 #kisslinux <tracer> I'm a little bit into hosting, not for end users, but for customers where I make projects with.
2021-01-23T18:15:58 #kisslinux <midfavila> Ah, gotcha. I've never done anything with it before
2021-01-23T18:16:06 #kisslinux <midfavila> So this will partially be a learning exercise
2021-01-23T18:16:41 #kisslinux <tracer> But another KISS problem. I build systemd, grub and want to try it out, but beforehand I'd need a password. "passwd: Permission denied ", I'm still in the chroot. Just rebooting into single user or any better idea?
2021-01-23T18:17:04 #kisslinux <midfavila> see if it's mount read-only
2021-01-23T18:17:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> whatever media contains /etc
2021-01-23T18:17:48 #kisslinux <tracer> So, I don't know when I'll be in the channel, if you need a relay, just ask me under tracer⊙2n
2021-01-23T18:18:00 #kisslinux <midfavila> Cool, thanks
2021-01-23T18:18:15 #kisslinux <tracer> The chroot cannot be readonly, I just built a fresh KISS in it.
2021-01-23T18:18:48 #kisslinux <tracer> it says /dev/sda3 on / type ext4 (rw,relatime)
2021-01-23T18:18:56 #kisslinux <midfavila> Well, if you're root and the media is rw, then I'm not entirely sure
2021-01-23T18:19:01 #kisslinux <midfavila> Never run into that problem before
2021-01-23T18:19:55 #kisslinux <tracer> Maybe a PAM/shadow issue. I'll just try, else I sent a day just with learning but no results :)
2021-01-23T18:20:09 #kisslinux <midfavila> oh geez, if it's PAM I have no clue
2021-01-23T18:20:15 #kisslinux <midfavila> I haven't touched PAM since high school
2021-01-23T18:21:07 #kisslinux <midfavila> well, I say that like it was a long time ago, pfft
2021-01-23T18:21:36 #kisslinux <tracer> OK, first hard disk wont boot.
2021-01-23T18:21:58 #kisslinux <tracer> Second also not. So back into chroot :)
2021-01-23T18:24:33 #kisslinux <tracer> OK, again in chroot, same promlem, permission denied. I'll leave it for tomorrow, will go downstair to my wife, watching Vikings. Have a good evening.
2021-01-23T18:24:52 #kisslinux <midfavila> You too
2021-01-23T23:01:25 #kisslinux <dilyn> allegedly, chromium has wayland native support that doesn't require X11 or patching? time to test
2021-01-23T23:01:33 #kisslinux <dilyn> tyty @git-bruh, whomever you are
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